I was wondering if anyone would have any comments on a question that has been bothering me for a while. When I'm out at a restaurant, I like to order port after dinner. Most of the time this is at a more expensive restaurant, as most others don't offer port or, if they do, have only a limited selection. A few times, I've wound up with a port that seems to have been open for too long, and to be past its prime. I suppose this is because the demand for port is not great enough to ensure that the bottles are finished quickly enough.
Does anyone know if this is the case? Do restaurants keep track of how long their ports have been open? If one asks the sommelier, is he likely to know or give an accurate answer? If a glass does not live up to expectations, is there anything you can do about it, absent a long argument?
By the way, I'm typing this as I sip a 1994 Smith Woodhouse Colheita. It is wonderful.
Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
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Andy Velebil
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Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
First, the 1994 SW is a nice bottle so I hope you enjoy it. As for your question...Yes it was probably open for FAR to long, which most restaurants are notorious for and why I rarely buy Port by the glass at a restaurant. It boggles my mind why servers don't push Port after dinner more often. I've been to many restaurants where I can clearly see the Port at the bar yet there is no mention of it on their wine list, then they wonder why no one buys itJohn E wrote: A few times, I've wound up with a port that seems to have been open for too long, and to be past its prime. I suppose this is because the demand for port is not great enough to ensure that the bottles are finished quickly enough.
If one asks the sommelier, is he likely to know or give an accurate answer? If a glass does not live up to expectations, is there anything you can do about it, absent a long argument?
By the way, I'm typing this as I sip a 1994 Smith Woodhouse Colheita. It is wonderful.
![[dash1.gif]](./images/smilies/dash1.gif "Pointless"){kind=small}
Most of the time when I ask a server how long a particular bottle of Port has been open I get the "deer in headlights" look, which tells me it's been open a long time. Sometimes the server will bring me a small taste to see how it's showing first. I'd recommend asking if they will do that so you can assess it and determine if you want a glass or not. That also alleviates the need to send a glass back if it's over the hill. And I have no issues at a restaurant of sending a bad glass of any wine back.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
Andy is correct.
Restaurants (at least the vast majority) are notoriously bad for proper storage of Port wine. Although I think that servers are CLUELESS about any wine served by the glass stored at the bar, in terms of how long bottles are open. Even asking the bartender who is responsible for opening it ... unless you are buying a bottle, will often times not remember. When I was responsible for staff training, when it came to ANY dessert wine served by the glass, the bartender was required to scribe the date the bottle was opened somewhere visible on the label, as there are often times more than 1 bartender in a 7 day shift, sometimes more than 2. No way they can know if they didn't open it and often times they won't remember even if they did.
Regardless, Andy's suggestion to ask for a small sip ... even 1/4 oz. can provide a solid glimpse if it is something you'd want to go ahead and purchase. If they are unable to do that ... at least for a Vintage Port, I'd suggest saying no thanks. LBV can hold for weeks if stored properly but don't count on most restaurants to do that. The same with Tawny Ports which are much more likely to hold up in a restaurant by-the-glass scenario. IF I am tempted to buy VP in a restaurant, I'll ask if they'd open a fresh bottle, some will and some won't. Do NOT expect a bartender to tell you the truth about how long a bottle on the shelf has been open. Many bartenders and even restaurant managers are there to sell and believe that customers can't tell the difference anyway. Just my take from having worked in the restaurant and hotel business for 25 years. Interestingly, I found that hotel bartenders were much more apt to share the truth about when bottles were opened and I am more trusting buying Port in a hotel bar than almost any restaurant.
Restaurants (at least the vast majority) are notoriously bad for proper storage of Port wine. Although I think that servers are CLUELESS about any wine served by the glass stored at the bar, in terms of how long bottles are open. Even asking the bartender who is responsible for opening it ... unless you are buying a bottle, will often times not remember. When I was responsible for staff training, when it came to ANY dessert wine served by the glass, the bartender was required to scribe the date the bottle was opened somewhere visible on the label, as there are often times more than 1 bartender in a 7 day shift, sometimes more than 2. No way they can know if they didn't open it and often times they won't remember even if they did.
Regardless, Andy's suggestion to ask for a small sip ... even 1/4 oz. can provide a solid glimpse if it is something you'd want to go ahead and purchase. If they are unable to do that ... at least for a Vintage Port, I'd suggest saying no thanks. LBV can hold for weeks if stored properly but don't count on most restaurants to do that. The same with Tawny Ports which are much more likely to hold up in a restaurant by-the-glass scenario. IF I am tempted to buy VP in a restaurant, I'll ask if they'd open a fresh bottle, some will and some won't. Do NOT expect a bartender to tell you the truth about how long a bottle on the shelf has been open. Many bartenders and even restaurant managers are there to sell and believe that customers can't tell the difference anyway. Just my take from having worked in the restaurant and hotel business for 25 years. Interestingly, I found that hotel bartenders were much more apt to share the truth about when bottles were opened and I am more trusting buying Port in a hotel bar than almost any restaurant.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
In general I agree with Andy and Roy.
During my working life I have had the opportunity to travel around the world, and with the exception of two countries, I would say that buying ports by the glass in a restaurant is in most cases a big risk, and not at all worth the money. The opened bottles are normally stored close to the glass wall of the bar, where there is a lot of light, so after having been there for weeks, it is no good anymore. If you buy a bottle that is being opened for you (look for half-bottles), then it is in most cases a differant story.
The two countries where I have had good experiences (although mixed there as well) are U.K. and Portugal. In these countries the consumption is at a higher level, and the chances are in many cases quite good that the bottle was opened a few days ago or max one week. But again, I try to look for half-bottles to be opened, or convincing those around the table that we need a full bottle to be opened there and then.
During my working life I have had the opportunity to travel around the world, and with the exception of two countries, I would say that buying ports by the glass in a restaurant is in most cases a big risk, and not at all worth the money. The opened bottles are normally stored close to the glass wall of the bar, where there is a lot of light, so after having been there for weeks, it is no good anymore. If you buy a bottle that is being opened for you (look for half-bottles), then it is in most cases a differant story.
The two countries where I have had good experiences (although mixed there as well) are U.K. and Portugal. In these countries the consumption is at a higher level, and the chances are in many cases quite good that the bottle was opened a few days ago or max one week. But again, I try to look for half-bottles to be opened, or convincing those around the table that we need a full bottle to be opened there and then.
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Peter W. Meek
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Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
It occurs to me that in states where we have the right to recork bottles and take them home, buying the whole bottle for the table, and taking home the remains for another day, might be a good idea. And if you dine at a particular restaurant regularly (more than once a week) you might inquire whether they will keep the bottle for you until your next visit.
Frankly, this is how our local "Gang of Port" began. I had an open bottle being held for me in the storage room behind the bar. Mike came in (before I had actually met him) and asked what port was available. The bartender that night didn't know about my arrangement and poured him a glass from my bottle. Chaad, the then-wine-director, came along and said, "OMG, you're selling port out of Pete's bottle!" Mike and I were introduced the next time we were at the restaurant on the same night.
I explained how my system worked and Mike decided to purchase his own bottle to keep behind the bar. I realized that this would mean that TWO bottles would be sitting back there getting older and suggested that we take turns buying the bottle and either or both of us could call for a glass from whosever bottle was there. That was several years ago and now Mike & Laurie are among Eva's & my closest friends. Fortunately, we all like 20-yr tawnys best, and we are scrupulous about marking the open-date on the bottle. We now may keep anywhere from 2 to 4 bottles open, especially Ferreira, which holds up nicely for a couple of weeks. We know which ones fade quickly, and the bottle-date helps us keep them from getting too "old".
The Gang of Port is still going strong; Mike & I just put in an order for 15-20 bottles each, to be kept behind the bar for us. Kenny, the current wine director, searches out deals among the local port distributors, and helps us play them off against each other. This order, we did not get any Ferreira, as the price was a bit high. When Kenny said so to the distributor, he said, "Why didn't you call me? I could have worked something out with you!" Mike and I also buy most of our port for home consumption through the same restaurant, so I suspect we make the restaurant something of a powerhouse in local port-buying circles.
The restaurant likes doing this, as it means we come in often to "visit" our bottles. Eva and I eat there at least twice a week, and Mike and Laurie maybe a bit oftener, plus we might visit for a bit of port and a dessert after eating elsewhere on some night. (I expect to do so tonight, after going elsewhere for sushi with Mike and Laurie.)
Frankly, this is how our local "Gang of Port" began. I had an open bottle being held for me in the storage room behind the bar. Mike came in (before I had actually met him) and asked what port was available. The bartender that night didn't know about my arrangement and poured him a glass from my bottle. Chaad, the then-wine-director, came along and said, "OMG, you're selling port out of Pete's bottle!" Mike and I were introduced the next time we were at the restaurant on the same night.
I explained how my system worked and Mike decided to purchase his own bottle to keep behind the bar. I realized that this would mean that TWO bottles would be sitting back there getting older and suggested that we take turns buying the bottle and either or both of us could call for a glass from whosever bottle was there. That was several years ago and now Mike & Laurie are among Eva's & my closest friends. Fortunately, we all like 20-yr tawnys best, and we are scrupulous about marking the open-date on the bottle. We now may keep anywhere from 2 to 4 bottles open, especially Ferreira, which holds up nicely for a couple of weeks. We know which ones fade quickly, and the bottle-date helps us keep them from getting too "old".
The Gang of Port is still going strong; Mike & I just put in an order for 15-20 bottles each, to be kept behind the bar for us. Kenny, the current wine director, searches out deals among the local port distributors, and helps us play them off against each other. This order, we did not get any Ferreira, as the price was a bit high. When Kenny said so to the distributor, he said, "Why didn't you call me? I could have worked something out with you!" Mike and I also buy most of our port for home consumption through the same restaurant, so I suspect we make the restaurant something of a powerhouse in local port-buying circles.
The restaurant likes doing this, as it means we come in often to "visit" our bottles. Eva and I eat there at least twice a week, and Mike and Laurie maybe a bit oftener, plus we might visit for a bit of port and a dessert after eating elsewhere on some night. (I expect to do so tonight, after going elsewhere for sushi with Mike and Laurie.)
--Pete
(Sesquipedalian Man)
(Sesquipedalian Man)
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Paul Fountain
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Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
Generally it is really poor in Australia.
At the top end restaurants around Melbourne, several have Vintage Port by the bottle but I've never seen a VP by the glass. I've never even seen an Australian VP style by the glass. The last Port I ordered was a bottle 2003 Vesuvio, but there are three problems with that - you really need a few people to get through it, invariably doesn't get enough time to breath, and the markup on the port makes it far too costly to do with any regularity. Even amongst the best restaurants, port by the glass isn't all that common.
Once you take a step down to restaurants that are a little more regular, you'd be extremely lucky to find anything Portuguese at all. Anything that is appearing under the "port" section will be Australian. It will either be tawny or ruby and there will be scant detail. It will almost certainly be stored and served at room temperature. If the restaurant has pretentions it will have Penfolds Grandfather on the list.
I like Peter's system. It sounds like everybody wins!
At the top end restaurants around Melbourne, several have Vintage Port by the bottle but I've never seen a VP by the glass. I've never even seen an Australian VP style by the glass. The last Port I ordered was a bottle 2003 Vesuvio, but there are three problems with that - you really need a few people to get through it, invariably doesn't get enough time to breath, and the markup on the port makes it far too costly to do with any regularity. Even amongst the best restaurants, port by the glass isn't all that common.
Once you take a step down to restaurants that are a little more regular, you'd be extremely lucky to find anything Portuguese at all. Anything that is appearing under the "port" section will be Australian. It will either be tawny or ruby and there will be scant detail. It will almost certainly be stored and served at room temperature. If the restaurant has pretentions it will have Penfolds Grandfather on the list.
I like Peter's system. It sounds like everybody wins!
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Moses Botbol
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Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
If there's a young bartender, I ask for the port in a wine glass. Most of the time, they'll pour a full red wine glass of port and I'll sacrifice a little freshness for quantity. Tawny or Madeira are my picks at restaurants.
Luckily around me, several lower priced restaurants have port by the bottle at decent prices. One of our local Brazilian haunts has Burmester Ruby for around $20 a bottle.
Luckily around me, several lower priced restaurants have port by the bottle at decent prices. One of our local Brazilian haunts has Burmester Ruby for around $20 a bottle.
Last edited by Moses Botbol on Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
Paul brings up an excellent point about the downside of ordering Vintage Port in a restaurant. Even if they open a brand new bottle and decant it properly to remove the sediment, it can be painfully clear that the VP needed a whole lot more time being "open" as in -- extended decanting, of which I am obviously a firm believer. Drinking a 2003 Vesuvio in a pop n' pour scenario, is not going to be nearly as good as a bottle carefully opened and decanted at home where the VP has several hours to bloom in decanter. That's why LBV is a slightly better option for restaurants and the fact that they will hold up better than VP after a week of sitting on a shelf open. When writing articles for hospitality industry and wine trade specific magazines, I frequently talk about LBV's for those creating wine lists in restaurants/clubs/bars/hotels/casinos/resorts etc. It is a better bang for the buck for consumers too.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
There are a handful of restaurants in the US and the UK where I have absolutely no hesitation in buying port either by the glass or by the bottle.
One example is The Crusting Pipe in Covent Garden, London. Currently on their list they have the Churchill 1991 available by the glass or bottle. If you buy a glass, it will be poured from a bottle into which it was decanted and the decanting date (but not time - I'm still trying to get them to record that) is written on a neck tag on the bottle. You know exactly how fresh you can expect the glass to be. They also have 2-3 other vintage ports available by the bottle and occasionally by the glass. Last time I was there it was Fonseca 1980 and Croft 1985 that was available.
A couple of years back, I used to visit New York quite regularly and always ate at Smith & Wollensky at 3rd and 49th. They used to have a decent selection of vintage port at fair prices - Smith Woodhouse 1985 was what I drank for several visits - and were always very happy to open a bottle for me to consume instead of a bottle of wine.
At both of these places, staff are/were happy for me to call a day ahead, order a bottle and have them decant the bottle 12-24 hours ahead of my arrival. I was always happy to pay for the bottle in advance and this seemed to be the only real concern that the establishment had when I first started to make this request.
One example is The Crusting Pipe in Covent Garden, London. Currently on their list they have the Churchill 1991 available by the glass or bottle. If you buy a glass, it will be poured from a bottle into which it was decanted and the decanting date (but not time - I'm still trying to get them to record that) is written on a neck tag on the bottle. You know exactly how fresh you can expect the glass to be. They also have 2-3 other vintage ports available by the bottle and occasionally by the glass. Last time I was there it was Fonseca 1980 and Croft 1985 that was available.
A couple of years back, I used to visit New York quite regularly and always ate at Smith & Wollensky at 3rd and 49th. They used to have a decent selection of vintage port at fair prices - Smith Woodhouse 1985 was what I drank for several visits - and were always very happy to open a bottle for me to consume instead of a bottle of wine.
At both of these places, staff are/were happy for me to call a day ahead, order a bottle and have them decant the bottle 12-24 hours ahead of my arrival. I was always happy to pay for the bottle in advance and this seemed to be the only real concern that the establishment had when I first started to make this request.
Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
Le Club Chasse et Pêche in montreal had a dow 85 by the glass for a very very reasonable 15$ / glass.
Me and a lady sitting at the table besides mine were actaully drinking it with the meal.
The staff was incredibly knowledgeable and told me that the dow 85 was opened at 6 the night before (24 hours) and that they served 2 glasses from the bottle and vacu sealed it afterwards.
They also had the coolness to decant the glass as they poured it instead of predecanting for sediment.
needless to say, that bottle was killed that very night =)
Me and a lady sitting at the table besides mine were actaully drinking it with the meal.
The staff was incredibly knowledgeable and told me that the dow 85 was opened at 6 the night before (24 hours) and that they served 2 glasses from the bottle and vacu sealed it afterwards.
They also had the coolness to decant the glass as they poured it instead of predecanting for sediment.
needless to say, that bottle was killed that very night =)
Disclosure: Distributor for Quevedo Wines in NY
Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
Jeff and Al, that's amazing!
My (admittedly limited) experience also confirms what seems to be the usual occurrence of terrible, open-way-too-long vintage ports by the glass at mid-to-high-end restaurants. Frankly, I'm surprised that more sommelier's and restaurant managers are not better prepared in this regard. Then again, I think Roy's statement that they are there to sell is probably right on the money, although a disappointment to this idealist. :|
The only relatively good experiences I have had were when they opened the bottle and poured my glass right in front of me. Even then, they usually poured it into a tiny apertif glass (someone needs to inform them that is NOT how port should be drunk!) and there was not adequate time (or space) for the wine to properly get any air.
So I never buy VP by the glass anymore. Occasionally, I am still tempted, but then I think about the exorbitant price and remember the most likely bad experience I will get, and how I will feel used and abused and dirty once the experience is over. And so I walk away and save my money for my own bottle at home at a later date...
My (admittedly limited) experience also confirms what seems to be the usual occurrence of terrible, open-way-too-long vintage ports by the glass at mid-to-high-end restaurants. Frankly, I'm surprised that more sommelier's and restaurant managers are not better prepared in this regard. Then again, I think Roy's statement that they are there to sell is probably right on the money, although a disappointment to this idealist. :|
The only relatively good experiences I have had were when they opened the bottle and poured my glass right in front of me. Even then, they usually poured it into a tiny apertif glass (someone needs to inform them that is NOT how port should be drunk!) and there was not adequate time (or space) for the wine to properly get any air.
So I never buy VP by the glass anymore. Occasionally, I am still tempted, but then I think about the exorbitant price and remember the most likely bad experience I will get, and how I will feel used and abused and dirty once the experience is over. And so I walk away and save my money for my own bottle at home at a later date...
Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
My gripe is definitely with the tiny tiny tulip looking glasses that I can't even put my schnoz into.
it's a measley 2oz pour and you can't even sniff it properly.
it's a measley 2oz pour and you can't even sniff it properly.
Disclosure: Distributor for Quevedo Wines in NY
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Andy Velebil
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Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
Same, and why I always ask for them to put it in a small white wine glass. Solves two issues, one is I get a glass that I can actually smell and swirl out of and they usually give a larger pour as wellJeff G. wrote:My gripe is definitely with the tiny tiny tulip looking glasses that I can't even put my schnoz into.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Eric Menchen
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Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
For the reasons discussed above, nearly all my restaurant by-the-glass purchases have been tawnies with indication of age. I've had a few colhietas and LBVs, but can't recall ordering a VP by the glass.
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Shawn Denkler
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Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
I've had many ports in restaurants or bars that have been open way too long. If I ask how long the bottle has been opened they usually have no idea. So I ask how full the bottle is, and never have a glass if the bottle is less than half full For vintage port I probably want it to be mostly full to increase the odds of it being opened fairly recently.
Shawn Denkler, "Portmaker" Quinta California Cellars
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Gary Richardson
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Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
As a general rule, I don't order Port at restaurants unless (1) they have something that I have never tried or (2) they have something that I don't already have in my "cellar". This doesn't happen very often.
Oh ... and never Vintage Port for the same reasons already mentioned, here. I once (long ago) made the mistake of ordering a bottle of 1977 Graham's at a restaurant. They had no idea how to properly decant it, and it was at a time when that bottle was in a dumb phase.
So now, my Port consumption is almost exclusively at my home or my brother-in-laws.
-- Gary
Oh ... and never Vintage Port for the same reasons already mentioned, here. I once (long ago) made the mistake of ordering a bottle of 1977 Graham's at a restaurant. They had no idea how to properly decant it, and it was at a time when that bottle was in a dumb phase.
So now, my Port consumption is almost exclusively at my home or my brother-in-laws.
-- Gary
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Glenn E.
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Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
I had a glass of 1985 Dow Vintage Port at Bobby Flay's Mesa Grill in NYC this weekend, and it was fabulous. The bottle had been opened the day before which is about the perfect decant time for that Port. It made for a great dessert after the New Mexico spice rubbed pork tenderloin that I had for dinner.
Glenn Elliott
Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
Hi all,
I also agree to Andy Velebil.
Thanks
I also agree to Andy Velebil.
Thanks
Im 24, I love to help people..
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Andy Velebil
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Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
Hi Brij, Welcome to the forum, can you tell us a little about yourself and what Ports you like?brij s wrote:Hi all,
I also agree to Andy Velebil.
Thanks
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Re: Port in a restaurant--how dependable?
Considering the 350mL bottle of 2007 Graham's that was opened for me on July 4th weekend of this year is still sitting up on the wall from where I first ordered it, I think that might be a good answer for you there on how restaurants might handle things. I did go back a day later to order more of it, but then the price went up because apparently the first bartender rang it up wrong, so I didn't end up finishing it.
Since then a new bottle of VP from another maker showed up but it was already opened so I haven't ordered it.
Since then a new bottle of VP from another maker showed up but it was already opened so I haven't ordered it.