Pipe dream?

[Eric Ifune]

No reason why it should have to be "port"....presumably there is no rule that prevents unbottled fortified wine that happens to be made from grapes grown in the Douro being sold?

I'm guessing one could call this "Generoso do Douro."
Back in the day when Port had to be sent down to Gaia and raised in the Lodges, Generoso was the term for the wines on the Douro before they were sent down river.

[Derek T.]

No reason why it should have to be "port"....presumably there is no rule that prevents unbottled fortified wine that happens to be made from grapes grown in the Douro being sold?

I doubt very much that this is true. If it were the wine making industry would have left its regulator behind long ago and simply re-named the product of the region.

The demarcated region of the Douro is regulated and controlled by the IVDP, which is an institution backed by legislation and recognised by other wine making countries across the globe. I do not believe that wine makers of the Douro are free to make other (or similar) types of wine from grapes grown in the region and bypass the regulations. It would be like someone setting up a new bank, not bothering to register with the authorities and selling anything they wanted to.

[Rob C.]

No reason why it should have to be "port"....presumably there is no rule that prevents unbottled fortified wine that happens to be made from grapes grown in the Douro being sold?

I doubt very much that this is true. If it were the wine making industry would have left its regulator behind long ago and simply re-named the product of the region.

The demarcated region of the Douro is regulated and controlled by the IVDP, which is an institution backed by legislation and recognised by other wine making countries across the globe. I do not believe that wine makers of the Douro are free to make other (or similar) types of wine from grapes grown in the region and bypass the regulations. It would be like someone setting up a new bank, not bothering to register with the authorities and selling anything they wanted to.

Is this speculation, or do you have anything to back this up?

It's quite different from setting up a bank for a number of obvious reasons - a more apposite comparison would be whether cheesemakers in Melton Mowbray are allowed to make anything other than Stilton...

[Andy Velebil]

As a farmer you are allowed to make a limited amount wine/Port for "family" use without approval from the IVDP and outside of Beneficio limits. This is pretty much the same in most wine regions I am aware of.

That said, does some get sold or traded from time to time? I don't know for sure but the odds would indicated that yes, some probably does get sold or traded to others none the less. While probably a technical violation of some rule, the quantity probably isn't enough to cause any issues.

[Derek T.]

Is this speculation, or do you have anything to back this up?

I do not have sufficient understanding of the regulations to point you to the specific clauses but I would say it is more than speculation.

I think the absence of contrary evidence proves the point I am trying to make. If it were the case that Douro farmers/wine producers could make and commercially market wines that were not officially classified as Port of Douro DOC then we would know about it because those wines would be on the shelf. There is much stress (and very occasionally violence) caused by the restrictions imposed by the Beneficio. If the producers could simply produce a similar style of wine from the surplus grapes and sell it as something other than Port of DOC do you not think we would have seen that happen before now?

It is also worth noting that there is not a single wine producer in the region that we know of that is not registered as a Port/Douro wine producer. That suggests to me that it would be illegal to create such an entity. There are lots of unused vineyards and virgin ground in the Douro that could be used to produce different styles of wine. Why would it be that no one has done so? Why is it that everything that comes to the market from the region is in one of the IVDP approved styles? Where are the Douro versions of Champagne/Sauterne/Sherry/Madeira/Rhone/etc? If it was possible to make and market these they would exist.

My conclusion (or speculation if you will) is that the making and selling anything other than approved Port or Douro DOC wines from within the region is not permitted.

[Rob C.]

Is this speculation, or do you have anything to back this up?

I do not have sufficient understanding of the regulations to point you to the specific clauses but I would say it is more than speculation.

I think the absence of contrary evidence proves the point I am trying to make. If it were the case that Douro farmers/wine producers could make and commercially market wines that were not officially classified as Port of Douro DOC then we would know about it because those wines would be on the shelf. There is much stress (and very occasionally violence) caused by the restrictions imposed by the Beneficio. If the producers could simply produce a similar style of wine from the surplus grapes and sell it as something other than Port of DOC do you not think we would have seen that happen before now?

It is also worth noting that there is not a single wine producer in the region that we know of that is not registered as a Port/Douro wine producer. That suggests to me that it would be illegal to create such an entity. There are lots of unused vineyards and virgin ground in the Douro that could be used to produce different styles of wine. Why would it be that no one has done so? Why is it that everything that comes to the market from the region is in one of the IVDP approved styles? Where are the Douro versions of Champagne/Sauterne/Sherry/Madeira/Rhone/etc? If it was possible to make and market these they would exist.

My conclusion (or speculation if you will) is that the making and selling anything other than approved Port or Douro DOC wines from within the region is not permitted.

If what you say is correct, then surely wines like Niepoort's DoDa / DaDo would be an impossibility?

I would be genuinely be surprised if this were due to a prohibitive statutory or regulatory ban, rather than economics. You know for yourself the premium that grapes with beneficio certificates command (even if it is only the certificates that end up being used...), and that the expense of farming vineyards in the Douro combined with general world over-supply in recent decades mean that growing grapes for non-premium wines can be a shaky proposition there. Many unused vineyards became unused to cash in on EU subsidies.

[Derek T.]

If what you say is correct, then surely wines like Niepoort's DoDa / DaDo would be an impossibility?

That is a new one on me. It would be interesting to know what bureaucracy Dirk had to go through to de-classify those grapes/wines in order to produce and market the blend with the Douro being quoted as one of the sources.

I would be genuinely be surprised if this were due to a prohibitive statutory or regulatory ban, rather than economics. You know for yourself the premium that grapes with beneficio certificates command (even if it is only the certificates that end up being used...), and that the expense of farming vineyards in the Douro combined with general world over-supply in recent decades mean that growing grapes for non-premium wines can be a shaky proposition there. Many unused vineyards became unused to cash in on EU subsidies.

But there are certainly areas within the demarcated region that are not particularly difficult to cultivate, particularly at higher altitudes where the land is almost flat. We know that the region has a history of wine producers who deplore the restrictions the IVDP or its predecessors place on them so I find it very surprising that not one producer has marketed a wine from within the region by simply ignoring the regulations and doing whatever they wish.

It would be good it if someone in the trade would chime in on this.

[Rob C.]

If what you say is correct, then surely wines like Niepoort's DoDa / DaDo would be an impossibility?

That is a new one on me. It would be interesting to know what bureaucracy Dirk had to go through to de-classify those grapes/wines in order to produce and market the blend with the Douro being quoted as one of the sources.

On the label, at least, there's no indication that the component wines coming from Douro / Dao (nor is there an indiction of vintage on the label) - they are relying on brand recognition (plus cork and no doubt some serial number to distinguish vintages)...

Marketing literature is, of course, a different story (as you can see from the Niepoort website!)

Edit:

The first Dado was born in 2000, a blend of 50% Dão wine, from Quinta da Pellada and 50% Douro wine, from Quinta do Carril. Making the wine was actually the easiest part of the process. The challenge was to overcome all the legal problems related to the label approval. As a table wine the label could not mention: region involved , year of harvest, year of bottling, or the history of the wine...

[Derek T.]

Hopefully this will provide us with the answer

[Andy Velebil]

Port and still wines are different. You can make a still wine out of non-approved grape varieties in the Douro. Quinta do Noval does this with a Syrah they call Labrador. Niepoort also makes a non-Douro DOC wine(s) as well. However, you cannot call it a "Douro DOC" wine and it won't have a Selo or back label that other Douro DOC wines have. It's listed as a regional wine on the label.

[Moses Botbol]

I'd love to try some "port" made in Dao, has anyone ever tried or seen that?

[Derek T.]

Hopefully this will provide us with the answer

...and here is the answer...

Wines produced in Douro without Denomination of Origin (Port or Douro)
Reply to: Derek T

It’s forbidden to produce fortified wines in Douro without Denomination of Origin (D.O.). The legislation which forbids is: Decreto-lei nº 191/2002 from September, 13th.
You can find it here (sorry it’s in Portuguese, but the important point is the first): http://www.ivdp.pt/pagina.asp?codPag=48 ... codLei=105
It’s possible to produce still wine without D.O. in Douro but they can’t mention the origin or make a reference to the Douro region

So a Douro producer selling a pipe of fortified wine by not calling it Port would be in breach of the regulations.

[Rob C.]

Hopefully this will provide us with the answer

...and here is the answer...

Wines produced in Douro without Denomination of Origin (Port or Douro)
Reply to: Derek T

It’s forbidden to produce fortified wines in Douro without Denomination of Origin (D.O.). The legislation which forbids is: Decreto-lei nº 191/2002 from September, 13th.
You can find it here (sorry it’s in Portuguese, but the important point is the first): http://www.ivdp.pt/pagina.asp?codPag=48 ... codLei=105
It’s possible to produce still wine without D.O. in Douro but they can’t mention the origin or make a reference to the Douro region

So a Douro producer selling a pipe of fortified wine by not calling it Port would be in breach of the regulations.

Reading the regs, this restriction only applies to the "production" / "manufacture" / "storage" of fortified wine within the demarcated area. In terms of a reading based on various translation websites, there's nothing in that legislation to prohibit the selling of grapes to someone who then takes them on a short road-trip outside the area to be pressed / fortified and then sold as generic fortified wine.

[Al B.]

Wines produced in Douro without Denomination of Origin (Port or Douro)
Reply to: Derek T

It’s forbidden to produce fortified wines in Douro without Denomination of Origin (D.O.). The legislation which forbids is: Decreto-lei nº 191/2002 from September, 13th.
You can find it here (sorry it’s in Portuguese, but the important point is the first): http://www.ivdp.pt/pagina.asp?codPag=48 ... codLei=105
It’s possible to produce still wine without D.O. in Douro but they can’t mention the origin or make a reference to the Douro region

So a Douro producer selling a pipe of fortified wine by not calling it Port would be in breach of the regulations.

I wonder if that is consistent with the EU rules on freedom of trade. While I can see it being permitted under EU rules to only make Port in accordance with the rules of the IVDP, I am surprised that it is legal to prevent anyone from making fortified wine in the Douro region unless it is in compliance with the IVDP rules and insisting that it is called Port.

Do we know anyone who could take on the IVDP and ask them to explain or change their rules?

[Daniel Jewesbury]

This is very far away from OP's question - we've gone from buying a pipe to smuggling grapes to somewhere just beyond the Douro, vinifying them and marketing them as not-Port.

Why would anyone want to do this...?

[Andy Velebil]

This is very far away from OP's question - we've gone from buying a pipe to smuggling grapes to somewhere just beyond the Douro, vinifying them and marketing them as not-Port.

Why would anyone want to do this...?

Doesn't seem very cost effective to me. The easiest would be to make Port without IVDP approval and sell it "under the table" later. One can logically assume that this does happen to some some degree. Probably between people who live in the region.

[Miguel Simoes]

This is very far away from OP's question - we've gone from buying a pipe to smuggling grapes to somewhere just beyond the Douro, vinifying them and marketing them as not-Port.

Agree!

Reg the idea of buying a pipe, i think in the end I would be more adept of just putting down $$ upfront for a steady supply of a company's flagship 20 Year Tawny (or other age, whatever one's preference).

A v valid point was made that by sticking w just one pipe one would be missing out on the benefits of blending and possible ending up the a "lemon".

If the driver of value here is our willingness to put up $$ upfront requiring a much lower return vs what a producer would require, then just buying up X bottles/year of your favorite tawny should work just fine, and you would be unlikely to end up w a "lemon".

[Daniel Jewesbury]

This is very far away from OP's question - we've gone from buying a pipe to smuggling grapes to somewhere just beyond the Douro, vinifying them and marketing them as not-Port.

Agree!

Reg the idea of buying a pipe, i think in the end I would be more adept of just putting down $$ upfront for a steady supply of a company's flagship 20 Year Tawny (or other age, whatever one's preference).

A v valid point was made that by sticking w just one pipe one would be missing out on the benefits of blending and possible ending up the a "lemon".

If the driver of value here is our willingness to put up $$ upfront requiring a much lower return vs what a producer would require, then just buying up X bottles/year of your favorite tawny should work just fine, and you would be unlikely to end up w a "lemon".

+1

[Moses Botbol]

If the driver of value here is our willingness to put up $$ upfront requiring a much lower return vs what a producer would require, then just buying up X bottles/year of your favorite tawny should work just fine, and you would be unlikely to end up w a "lemon".

I don't think it is purely value driven for someone in this day and age to buy a pipe. It's solely for the cool factor and nostalgia.

[Derek T.]

I don't think it is purely value driven for someone in this day and age to buy a pipe. It's solely for the cool factor and nostalgia.

Agreed. But you can't.