WineBid Dilemma

[Bradley Bogdan]

Hey all,

I'd like your opinion on a situation that I'm in the middle of concerning winebid.com

Over the weekend, a few of us at FTLOP noticed some bottles of Noval Nacional that were misslisted as regular Noval in the week's auction. I (and a few other people) bid on them, and I ended up winning one bottle of '87 Nacional for $210 hammer price, excluding the usual tax, premium, etc. Not the greatest deal in QPR terms, but I considered it an opportunity at a bottle I may never see again, and had been bid up and outbid by hundreds of $$$ on the other mismarked Nacionals. Oh well.

I received an email from winebid.com today stating the following:

Dear Bradley,

We have discovered a mis-inspection on your 3/16/14 auction winnings.

Upon inspection prior to packing, item: 1987 Quinta do Noval, 750ml [I4638525] was discovered to be a 1987 Quinta do Noval Nacional, 750ml.

The 1987 Quinta do Noval Nacional, 750ml has a reserve value of $450.00. If you would like to accept this bottle, we would charge you an additional $240.00. No additional premium fee or tax would be charged. If you do not wish to accept this bottle, we can issue a full refund for the bottle. Please advise.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you.
Thank you for your business.

Brian Connors
WineBid.com
Customer Service Department
service@winebid.com
(888) 638 8968
Intl 001 (206) 320 1217

WineBid.com
The Premier Internet Wine Auction

Obviously, this left me rather unimpressed for a variety of reasons. I have purchased multiple other mislisted lots from winebid in the past, including '83 Nacionals, and have never received this notice. Aside from being poor customer service, even poorer scrutiny on the part of winebid in listing people's bottles, and probably being illegal to charge me the difference without paying tax, I suspect that their terms and conditions state that I am already the owner and they have no right to go back on the sale or alter the terms without my approval. I have copied and pasted the sections I think are relevant below:

The property described on the WineBid.com Website will be offered for sale by WineBid.com Inc. as a marketing agent on behalf of the Seller. Every attempt has been made to describe all property as accurately as possible. However WineBid.com does not warrant or represent, and denies responsibility for the accuracy of the descriptions, encompassing but not limited to vintage, provenance, authenticity, quality and condition as may be stated on the site. Any and all statements made relating to the property offered on the site are merely statement of opinion and at no time can be construed as warranties and representations of fact or assumptions of any liability on the part of WineBid.com.

When a lot description of a bottle includes a photo, the photo may not necessarily show the actual bottle offered in the lot. Unless the lot includes inspection notes describing imperfections, the photo may be a WineBid.com stock photo of a bottle of the specified wine and vintage, though not the exact bottle offered. Stock photos may be used for bottles that are in very good general condition but have lightly depressed corks, lightly elevated corks, lightly scuffed capsules, lightly depressed capsules, lightly wrinkled capsules, lightly worn capsules, lightly scuffed labels, lightly nicked labels and lightly worn labels.

Buyer accepts all purchases “as is.” Notwithstanding any other terms of these Terms & Conditions, should WineBid.com receive any written claims within 21 calendar days of the auction that any property is with a shortage, or otherwise out of condition, or that any statement in the web site is without basis, then WineBid.com will judge such claims through inspection of the property or by any other just means, and may require the Seller to cancel the sale and may refund the purchase price. At all times the decision of WineBid.com in its capacity of auctioneer will be final and binding on all parties.

The highest acceptable bid received prior to the end of the auction date and time shall be from the Buyer, who will assume full risk and responsibility of the lot.

The total Terms & Conditions are here: http://www.winebid.com/About/TermsAndConditions

I have gotten over my initial flash of anger that they would send such an email and not just suck it up and cover the difference to the seller for mislabeling the lot, and am now tempted to respond that I am already the legal owner of the lot and am not responsible for additional fees levied after the fact that are not part of their Terms. I believe their lines about not being responsible if the lot is misleading (though intended to protect themselves and the seller) is also able to protect me in this case. If they want to find a bottle of regular Noval '87 (which would be quite a feat as I don't believe it exists!) and say the picture was an incorrect stock photo, I guess that would also meet the letter of their terms, outside of the fact it wasn't the actual lot sold.

Thoughts? (Other than winebid should double check what they're selling a little more often )

[Eric Menchen]

I think winebid should suck it up. We all could see those pictures as plain as day and knew what those bottles were. It is their mistake. I would have expected something in the T&C to cover themselves, but as you and I read them, they only cover the case to cancel the sale to the detriment of the seller, not the other way around.

Let us know how this goes. I'm tracking lots this week, but I'm at a point I could easily boycott them, and let them know why.

[John M.]

They should have known something was amiss when the bids were well beyond the estimates mid week and they could have pulled the lots. The larger issue is they didn't make this mistake once last week. ... They made it five or six times with the others from 1966 & 1967 so those are likely bigger mistakes dollar wise... collectively they are probably on the hook for a lot of money. There are solutions but clearly none offered to rectify you at this point. Obviously they want you to counter.... even if that means you insist on the lot as bid.

Overall I find their email to you appalling. ... not a good way to start here.

[Tom D.]

Frustration is understandable, but this is not a totally uncommon occurrence, at least it's happened to me a number of times in various types of auctions over many years. Ultimately, if there is an error in the description, the auctioneer typically has the discretion to cancel the sale or, as WineBid has done, make you an offer to adjust the sale (this is typically covered by UCC, or by statue, not necessarily by auction terms). Ultimately, since these wines are mostly owned by wine people like us, not WineBid, I don't think you'd get much satisfaction out of screwing the consigner, or forcing them into a legal drama with WineBid to recoup their loss.

[Brad Bogdan]

Frustration is understandable, but this is not a totally uncommon occurrence, at least it's happened to me a number of times in various types of auctions over many years. Ultimately, if there is an error in the description, the auctioneer typically has the discretion to cancel the sale or, as WineBid has done, make you an offer to adjust the sale (this is typically covered by UCC, or by statue, not necessarily by auction terms). Ultimately, since these wines are mostly owned by wine people like us, not WineBid, I don't think you'd get much satisfaction out of screwing the consigner, or forcing them into a legal drama with WineBid to recoup their loss.

Could you provide a bit more detail on how this played out for you, Tom? I've seen lots pulled from auction before and during Internet and live auctions, which makes total sense, but I'd never heard of one being rescinded days after sale and payment.

I have no desire to screw the consigner on this, but I do believe the house should make an offer to them to resolve this and not me. If something is labelled wrong at a store and you buy it, the store doesn't chase you out the door and tell you to pay the difference or they're going to take it back. With large ticket delivery items, I've seen them ask for a portion, but it has come with other incentives as well, like pay and extra $500 of the $1000 we didn't charge you, and we'll throw in a free toaster or something. I can understand them freaking out about writing off the few thousand dollars they mislisted, but at least make an effort at customer service. I'd have probably been willing to kick in a bit extra if they'd asked for less and given me a bit of account credit towards future auctions or something.

Also, this just reinforced my notion that I will never consign wine to auction, haha. Better to just drink the stuff with some friends than let a website screw it all up. .


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[David Spriggs]

+1 on what Tom D said

This is standard practice for auctions. I'm surprised that they tried to sell it at a reserve price. The typical result is that the auction is canceled and the lot goes into the next auction. You have to remember that there is a seller on the other side of the transaction who is hoping to get a fair deal as well. I know... I have been there!

[Glenn E.]

Had they caught it at any point during the sale prior to actually accepting payment, they'd have ground to stand on. But from what you've said, they didn't catch it until they were packaging it up to ship to you, so they're SOL. It's already your bottle and you've paid for it at the agreed-upon price.

I also don't entirely buy the consignor argument, because if I were to ever sell bottles using an online auction site I'd make damn sure they were listed correctly.

It sounds to me like the problem exists between WineBid and the consignor. I'd tell them to ship your bottle that you've already paid for.

[Eric Menchen]

I also don't entirely buy the consignor argument, because if I were to ever sell bottles using an online auction site I'd make damn sure they were listed correctly.

+1 on that.
Obviously there are cases where the consignor may not be able to check, or not know, but still.

[Brad Bogdan]

Had they caught it at any point during the sale prior to actually accepting payment, they'd have ground to stand on. But from what you've said, they didn't catch it until they were packaging it up to ship to you, so they're SOL. It's already your bottle and you've paid for it at the agreed-upon price.

I also don't entirely buy the consignor argument, because if I were to ever sell bottles using an online auction site I'd make damn sure they were listed correctly.

It sounds to me like the problem exists between WineBid and the consignor. I'd tell them to ship your bottle that you've already paid for.

Yeah, they only emailed me 2-3 days after I had paid for it in full and the auction ended.


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[Marc J.]

It seems to me that once the auction ended, you were the rightful owner of the lot and and discrepancy between Winebid and the consignor really shouldn't concern you. If the misrepresentation had been found prior to the end of the auction, then Winebid would gave had a number of options available to them to rectify the the situation. After the hammer drops, in my option, it's a done deal.

[Glenn E.]

After the hammer drops, in my option, it's a done deal.

Yes, that sums it up perfectly.

Put another way, do you think they'd budge if you came back to them after an auction and said "Oh wait, I thought those were Nacionals. I didn't mean to bid that much for regular Novals!"

[Brad Bogdan]

It seems to me that once the auction ended, you were the rightful owner of the lot and and discrepancy between Winebid and the consignor really shouldn't concern you. If the misrepresentation had been found prior to the end of the auction, then Winebid would gave had a number of options available to them to rectify the the situation. After the hammer drops, in my option, it's a done deal.

Was bummed to see that you got outbid again in the final frenzy, Marc


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[Andy Velebil]

It seems to me that once the auction ended, you were the rightful owner of the lot and and discrepancy between Winebid and the consignor really shouldn't concern you. If the misrepresentation had been found prior to the end of the auction, then Winebid would gave had a number of options available to them to rectify the the situation. After the hammer drops, in my option, it's a done deal.

No lawyer here but I would agree with this. Once you paid for it, As winebid charges your credit card right after the auction ends, I would assume legally it's now yours. May be worth chatting up a lawyer friend to see what they say.

[Maurice Fitzhugh]

Bradley

Please let us know how this turns out. I for one will not use them if you do not get your wine. That is total BS. They charged your card and the deal was done.

[Moses Botbol]

Brad:

You own those lots and this should not even be a discussion. Best of luck!

[Marc J.]

It seems to me that once the auction ended, you were the rightful owner of the lot and and discrepancy between Winebid and the consignor really shouldn't concern you. If the misrepresentation had been found prior to the end of the auction, then Winebid would gave had a number of options available to them to rectify the the situation. After the hammer drops, in my option, it's a done deal.

Was bummed to see that you got outbid again in the final frenzy, Marc

Yeah, things got pretty crazy in the last minutes of that auction. Let us know how it goes. I'm very interested in how this gets resolved between yourself, Winebid & the consignor.

[Moses Botbol]

I've scored some outrageous wine deals just based on the lots being poorly described. Only if you really knew about that wine would you recognize it for what was.

[Bradley Bogdan]

Sent a reply with multiple acceptable counter offers on Thursday morning, still awaiting a response. I'll keep you all posted.

[Bradley Bogdan]

Apparently, they are not willing to deviate from their original request, I just received the following:

Dear Bradley,

Thank you for your reply. Since you do not agree to pay the difference in reserve price for the 1987 Quinta do Noval Nacional, 750ml, we will cancel this sale per our terms and conditions and issue a full refund for item I4638525. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you.

Thank you for your business.

Brian Connors
WineBid.com
Customer Service Department
service@winebid.com
888-638-8968 (US)
001-206-320-1217 (International)

[Eric Menchen]

And I will tell them to ship my past wins and that I will be boycotting them. I was tracking a bunch of things this week, but don't recall if I had bid. Time to explore some of the other auction sites.