creating a new Super Premium product

[Glenn E.]

An interesting discussion started in this thread about Graham's Stone Terraces and whether or not it is worthy of its relatively high asking price. I wondered why there would be concern about GST's price when it seems that Taylor's Vargella Vinha Velha and Vesuvio's Capela seem to be given a free pass for their similarly high asking prices. Not to mention Noval Nacional's even loftier asking price.

Eric Menchen pointed out that GST doesn't have a track record yet - 2011 is its very first release. Nacional clearly does have a track record, VVV is developing one, and VC at least as a handful of prior releases.

Eric then made this statement to help explain the thought process:

Whether the records are stellar or just ho-hum is a matter of opinion; but having a record or none is not.

Which made me wonder... how do you create a new super premium label?

If you aren't allowed to price it as a super premium product when you introduce it, then is it really super premium?

And if you price it "normally" when you introduce it, how to do you go about increasing the price up to super premium levels without angering your customers?

[Moses Botbol]

It's a long road to create a premium product in Vintage Port. VP of this caliber is meant to be enjoyed many decades from now. It's certainly a leap of faith to those who are buying on a promise of enjoyment 40-60-80 years down the road. Taylor and Graham will be around for a long time, so 50 years from now, these brands will compete with Nacional.

[Roy Hersh]

Maybe.

[Glenn E.]

Is there room for a tier between standard Vintage Ports and Nacional?

The price difference seems to indicate that there is. When a normal top-tier VP is $80 on release and Nacional is ~$800, it seems to me that there's room for something in the $150-$250 range.

I agree with Moses that you're essentially making a long bet. But as Roy points out there's really not much difference between these three Super Premium VPs and their normal brothers other than the limited availability.

I don't buy into the Nacional hype because 10x is too large of a multiplier for the rarity and slight difference in quality. I bought some of all three of these 2011s, though, with the thought that the much smaller premium (compared to Nacional) might actually be worth the rarity later. They're going to be my tickets into some tastings in my later years!

[Paul Fountain]

What does the Nacional have that makes it special? Scarcity, Proven track record, old field blends and original rootstock, and the wildcard is the ability to produce exceptional quality in less regarded years.
The Vesuvio, Grahams and and Taylors can claim scarcity, given they are from small parcels of vineyard. To a certain extent, they will all trade off the track record of their respective vineyards, but it gets harder after that. I'm not sure how old the Vesuvio, Grahams and and Taylors vines are for their limited releases but of course they will they will be of different composition.
It is going to take time for these releases to prove themselves - at least 2 generations of winemakers, and probably 3 or 4. It is also going to require a lot of long term vision around when to release these ports, and perhaps more importantly, when not to. I don't think any of us will still be around when this is answered definitively.

[Andy Velebil]

I think Roy's point is that GST doesn't have a track record. Nacional clearly does. Taylor VVV is working on a decent track record. Capela has a few entries. Whether the records are stellar or just ho-hum is a matter of opinion; but having a record or none is not.

Some would argue that Taylor does not have a great track record with the VVV. Obviously it's early days yet.

David is pretty spot on here. Taylor's VVV didn't have a great start. The early ones were no better than the regular Taylor's and some may argue they actually were not as good. I would counter that at least for the last couple releases it has been a tad better than the regular. But that difference is pretty slight IMO. Is that enough to justify the price hike for VVV?

Even looking at Noval and Nacional. At best Nacional tends to be around 1-2 points, maybe 3, higher than the regular. At that level its a difference most drinkers would have a hard time discerning. So does that small increase justify the huge price hike? I guess that comes down to what the market will bear. And there are plenty of takers it seems.

The other issue no one has raised is the mental experience. IMO, these "Super VP's" play more a mental game on people than anything else. Sure they can be outstanding and sometimes better than their less expensive counter part. But I also feel that if you served that same super VP double blind, most people would never get so googly eyed over it as they do when they know what they're drinking. I back that up by asking how many times do you ever see these super VP's served double blind, the tasters rate them, then their score/note sheets are removed so they can't change them after knowing what it is??? Food for thought....

[Glenn E.]

What does the Nacional have that makes it special? Scarcity, Proven track record, old field blends and original rootstock, and the wildcard is the ability to produce exceptional quality in less regarded years.

I don't believe this is the case. Realistically it can't be - the Nacional vineyard isn't immune to phylloxera, it's just given lots of manual attention so that the vines last as long as possible. They rip out dying vines and replant regularly, or so I've been led to believe. The vineyard isn't grafted onto American (phylloxera-resistant) rootstock, but that's not the same as having original rootstock. Anyone have a more detailed understanding?

Any single vineyard product has the ability to produce in years that a larger parcel cannot - it's the nature of terroir. You just need a year in which the single vineyard got a slightly different (and better) weather pattern than the estate as a whole. At least in theory I see no reason that the old vines vineyards (I think there are 3?) of VVV, or the Vinha dos Cardenhos and Port Arthur vineyards of Stone Terraces, couldn't produce in non-vintage years. Taylor and Graham would just have to make the call to do it. I don't think that Capela is a single vineyard product... it's more of a "Reserve VP" as I understand it. It could still be produced in non-vintage years, but Vesuvio's reasons for doing it would be different.

[Glenn E.]

You just need a year in which the single vineyard got a slightly different (and better) weather pattern than the estate as a whole.

Saying this got me interested, so I've been doing a little research.

Quinta dos Malvedos is primarily a South facing estate in the upper Douro east of Pinhao. But the Port Arthur vineyard is East facing, and the Vinha dos Cardenhos is actually North facing. So those two vineyards will have pretty dramatically different terroir than that of Malvedos as a whole. I will be surprised if they aren't able to produce Stone Terraces in what would otherwise be non-vintage years, though they may still choose not to do so. The two vineyards combined are roughly 1.8 hectares so Stone Terraces will always be very limited production.

Quinta de Vargellas is primarily North facing, though its terrain is relatively complex so there are many parcels within the estate that face in different directions. Vargellas Vinha Velha is harvested from 5 small plots which are scattered throughout the estate: Polverínho, Renova do Depósito, Renova do Armazém, Gricha and Vinha Grande. There doesn't appear to be any rhyme or reason to these plots other than the age of the vines, which varies between 80 and 120 years old. They're all field blends except for Polverínho which was part of the first single-variety batch planting experiements in 1927 by Dick Yeatman. The old vines plots combined produce roughly 15% of the grapes at Vargellas, but only about 2% of the total production is used to make VVV. As Vargellas is ~68 hectares, this makes VVV production somewhat lower than Stone Terraces production at the equivalent of 1.36 hectares, though Taylor Fladgate could choose to increase VVV production if they wanted to.

Vesuvio a Capela is indeed simply a "super reserve" made from the finest grapes harvested from Quinta do Vesuvio. It isn't a single vineyard VP, so its terroir simply represents the pinnacle of what the estate as a whole can produce, at least in theory.

The Nacional vineyard is well-known amongst Port fanatics, at least by reputation if not by actual knowledge. It is situated near and just above the house at Quinta do Noval, but its terroir is probably affected more by the devoted care provided to the vineyard than by its location. (Though its location surely also plays a part.) The vines in the Nacional vineyard are ungrafted which means they are vulnerable to phylloxera. Phylloxera's affect on a vine (before killing it) is to stress the vine and make it struggle as the roots are destroyed, so at least in theory the vines in the Nacional vineyard should produce "older" than their actual age. It's very easy to see why the Nacional vineyard might produce in non-vintage years, or might not produce in vintage years. It's just an entirely different vineyard than anything else in the Douro. The Nacional vineyard is about 2.5 hectares, so its production is slightly higher than that of Stone Terraces or VVV though still very limited.

[Eric Menchen]

Back to Glenn's original question about how you go about making a new super-premium. I was reminded of a tact taken by some of the California producers. They come out with some products that are made exclusive--only offered at the property in limited quantity, or only offered by signing up for their club, which might have a waiting list. At this point the price might be higher than one of their regular offerings, but not necessarily by much. These bottles then end up on the secondary market, where their exclusivity results in a price hike, and if the product is great, and even greater premium. Do this for a few years and watch the secondary prices and see if you can up the price ...

[Andy Velebil]

....

Any single vineyard product has the ability to produce in years that a larger parcel cannot - it's the nature of terroir. You just need a year in which the single vineyard got a slightly different (and better) weather pattern than the estate as a whole. At least in theory I see no reason that the old vines vineyards (I think there are 3?) of VVV, or the Vinha dos Cardenhos and Port Arthur vineyards of Stone Terraces, couldn't produce in non-vintage years. Taylor and Graham would just have to make the call to do it. I don't think that Capela is a single vineyard product... it's more of a "Reserve VP" as I understand it. It could still be produced in non-vintage years, but Vesuvio's reasons for doing it would be different.

I'll break this into two parts of this statement. As for the Terroir comment, yes and no. While a good terroir does help often single vineyard wines come from vineyards or plots smaller in size that are cared for better than other larger sections. Also, a producer can spend the time to triage during harvest to only pick the best bunches of grapes exactly when they are ready. Often making several passes at different times to remove only those grapes at their best, leaving the others to continue to ripen and pick later. With a large vineyard that is simply not economically viable to do. So a small section, like Nacional or Port Arther for example, can receive better viticulture attention throughout the year and harvest lending it the ability to potentially produce a better product.

As for the second part. Capela, VVV, and arguably NN are not "single vineyard" or even "single plot" wines. All are made up of different sections of grapes, some closer together than others. But none are one large continuous plot with the same exposure. Yes, some may say NN is, but the plot is technically split by a road and the parts above and below the Quinta house have different exposures. So all of these "premium" products are technically very similar to each other in certain viticultural ways.

[Andy Velebil]

What does the Nacional have that makes it special? Scarcity, Proven track record, old field blends and original rootstock, and the wildcard is the ability to produce exceptional quality in less regarded years.
.

IMO, and including what I posted in response to Glenn's statement above, is time. NN has been worked from a viticultural aspect since the 1920's. It has been treated differently and when that happens a viticulturist gets to know how that small section behaves in all types of weather conditions. Having that knowledge is important to know how to treat it during the season and how to predict what it will do that year to get it to perform its best.

Another way to look at it is...It's akin to the guy who has 2 apple trees at home for family use and 5,000 apples trees on his farm down the road that he sells. The ability to dote on 2 trees and help it grow and produce the best tasting apples is pretty easy. It's impossible to do the same thing with 5,000 trees. Some will produce very good, some poor, some average, and a few exceptional. But you will never get the same overall exceptionally consistent apples as you do from those 2 trees you've doted on. Why? Because it's not economically viable and there is simply no physical way someone can spend the amount of care on 5,000 trees as he can with just 2.

What often gets lost in the wine world as a whole is the word farming. What happens to make a great bottle doesn't solely happen after harvest. What makes or breaks a great wine is what has been happening from a viticulture side for the years prior to being harvested.

[Glenn E.]

As for the second part. Capela, VVV, and arguably NN are not "single vineyard" or even "single plot" wines. All are made up of different sections of grapes, some closer together than others. But none are one large continuous plot with the same exposure. Yes, some may say NN is, but the plot is technically split by a road and the parts above and below the Quinta house have different exposures. So all of these "premium" products are technically very similar to each other in certain viticultural ways.

I think you're splitting hairs a bit there. There's nothing that says a vineyard has to have the same exposure, nor that it must all be one plot. To me, a plot is smaller than a vineyard, and a vineyard is smaller than an estate/quinta. (Though in the Douro all three might be the same thing!)

Nacional is not a single plot, sure. But it is a single vineyard because Noval say it is. The road that bisects it is irrelevant to me for purposes of a vineyard, though it does divide the vineyard in to at least two different plots. Aside from the road and the Quinta house, the Nacional vineyard is contiguous. And the Quinta house just takes up space, it doesn't completely separate the vineyard at least in my memory of it. If my memory is wrong and the Quinta house does completely split the Nacional vines, then yeah I'd agree that it isn't a single vineyard.

But I agree with you that none of the others are single vineyard. Stone Terraces is made from 2 vineyards. VVV is made from 5. Capela is made from the best grapes harvested across the entire estate.

At any rate, it sort of sounds like popular opinion (at least here) is that you have to establish a track record before you can create a super premium product, which to me sets the bar too high for at least some cases. I might agree with that assessment for a product like Capela, which is allegedly made from the best grapes produced at Vesuvio, but not for Stone Terraces and VVV. The latter two aren't necessarily striving for higher quality, but rather for something rare and unique (that they also hope they can make into higher quality). I could see Stone Terraces and VVV some day becoming more Nacional-like because they're made sort of the same way, but I don't really see that happening with Capela since it's a different beast.

[John M.]

Don't you think selling these ports, BEFORE there is a track record, is an exercise in HYPE. Tell your story, get people to believe in it; keep it scarce and the market will buy whether its great or not. Later, when there's a track record, it will help sell itself. But for now, marketing matters a lot.

[Glenn E.]

Don't you think selling these ports, BEFORE there is a track record, is an exercise in HYPE. Tell your story, get people to believe in it; keep it scarce and the market will buy whether its great or not. Later, when there's a track record, it will help sell itself. But for now, marketing matters a lot.

Absolutely. That's just how markets work today if you want to get to market quickly.

I thought about it even more last night after I wrote this:

I could see Stone Terraces and VVV some day becoming more Nacional-like because they're made sort of the same way, but I don't really see that happening with Capela since it's a different beast.

I think I could take it a step further. Given what Andy has said, I think that Stone Terraces really has the best chance of ever competing with Nacional.

Capela is a different kind of product. It's a "Reserve VP" so all it really has to go for it is quality. Its grapes are sourced from the entire estate, so it's only a limited release because they choose to keep production low.

VVV has unique vineyards behind it, but while actual production of VVV is only 2% of Vargellas as a whole, those 5 vineyards actually make up 15% of Vargellas' production. Which means they're at least 10.2 hectares in total and probably larger since old vines tend to be less productive. As Andy has pointed out, a lot of what makes Nacional special is the attention to detail and manual care put into the vineyard itself. It's a lot harder - and requires a lot more time - to put that same level of effort into 10+ hectares of vines vs 2.5 hectares at Nacional. Which means VVV also has some aspects of Capela behind it - if Taylor Fladgate wanted to, they could increase production significantly. It doesn't have to be as limited as it is... they just choose to make it so.

But Stone Terraces is only 1.8 hectares. That's all there is - Grahams couldn't make more even if they wanted to. It's rare and it's always going to be rare. And on the care side, if the Symingtons want to they can easily put the same level of devoted effort into the Port Arthur and Vinha dos Cardenhos vineyards as Noval puts into the Nacional vineyard. They've at least given themselves a shot at competing. Whether or not they do is a different question.

[Andy Velebil]

Don't you think selling these ports, BEFORE there is a track record, is an exercise in HYPE. Tell your story, get people to believe in it; keep it scarce and the market will buy whether its great or not. Later, when there's a track record, it will help sell itself. But for now, marketing matters a lot.

Totally. But considering the relatively low price it's at now why not? I mean what happens if in 15-20 years it becomes something of a legend like NN and worth many times more? Anyone who didn't buy early would be kicking themselves in the arse for not buying it.

[Andy Velebil]

Capela is a different kind of product. It's a "Reserve VP" so all it really has to go for it is quality. Its grapes are sourced from the entire estate, so it's only a limited release because they choose to keep production low.

Not sure I'm following you here. IIRC Capela only comes from certain designated parcels on the Quinta, very similar to VVV.

[Glenn E.]

Capela is a different kind of product. It's a "Reserve VP" so all it really has to go for it is quality. Its grapes are sourced from the entire estate, so it's only a limited release because they choose to keep production low.

Not sure I'm following you here. IIRC Capela only comes from certain designated parcels on the Quinta, very similar to VVV.

In this interview with Paul Symington in TheDrinksBusiness, they say:

Capela meanwhile is produced from the pick of the crop at the Quinta do Vesuvio vineyards.

That's not a direct quote from Paul, so it could easily be a misinterpretation by the article's author, but I haven't been able to find anything elsewhere that contradicts it.

Perhaps most importantly, TheVintagePortSite.com has only this to say about Capela da Quinta do Vesuvio:

This Vintage Port is a premium blend of outstanding wines, some of which have been micro-vinified by partitioning the immense lagares at Vesuvio to a fraction of their normal capacity. Other specialised winemaking techniques may be employed to enhance and concentrate the wines, for example bleeding the lagar nearly 30% to produce an even more tremendously concentrated wine, using a cold fermentation to enhance aromatics, or fermenting a component wine to a lower baumé for a drier style. This is a hand-crafted Vintage Port like no other.

This extraordinary Vintage Port is named for the lovely chapel (capela in Portuguese) at Quinta do Vesuvio.

If it were made from a single vineyard, I'd expect that to be trumpeted on TheVintagePortSite and everywhere else. That seems like something you'd want to use to add to the hype.

So while I'm certainly open to finding out that it is actually a designated parcel * product like Nacional, VVV, and Stone Terraces, it doesn't seem to be the case.

* I like your term. It's more generic, and more accurate in at least some cases, than single vineyard.

[Andy Velebil]

Capela comes from two parcels on the property, and not from the entire Quinta. It is also trodden in it's own 1/2 lagar that they split from a larger one, similar to what Noval does with Nacional.

(Senior moment over with some help)

[Glenn E.]

Capela comes from two parcels on the property, and not from the entire Quinta.

Is this something you've been told, or did you find a link to it somewhere? And do these two parcels have names? It's really making me curious now... why isn't this being hyped if it's the case? Maybe the parcels in question don't have any history? I still think I'd name them just to have something to release to the press about how cool they are and how that makes the Port extra-special.

It is also trodden in it's own 1/2 lagar that they split from a larger one, similar to what Noval does with Nacional.

Yeah, this part I was able to find. Makes sense given that the Vesuvio lagares are pretty huge.

[Andy Velebil]

Capela comes from two parcels on the property, and not from the entire Quinta.

Is this something you've been told, or did you find a link to it somewhere? And do these two parcels have names? It's really making me curious now... why isn't this being hyped if it's the case? Maybe the parcels in question don't have any history? I still think I'd name them just to have something to release to the press about how cool they are and how that makes the Port extra-special.
.

Lets just say that info is irrefutable.

Maybe they do have names, like TN-4 or S-12????? Seriously on this part, I have no idea if there is a name other than whatever codes they may happen to use for internal record keeping. Maybe they don't care about having it named since the Port is called Capela already. I could see if you named the Port TN-4 after that particular section, but since they named it after the chapel there I guess what the plots are called don't really matter.