2015 Vintage Declarations

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Sete Mares
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Sete Mares »

I'm waiting too for some good Port Wines from 2015.
Thomas, any of wine you are talking are really good , in my opinion.
I'm waiting to see if Symington or Fladgate will declare some of their best houses. Quinta do Vesuvio is a good one, but Quinta do Vesuvio Capela is the Top.
Someone told me few weeks ago that will be 2015 Graham's Stone Terrace, for me one of the best Ports next to Quinta Noval Nacional. Let's wait and see.


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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Glenn E. »

Grahams has declared 2015 Stone Terraces!

http://blog.symington.com/grahams-decla ... s-vintage/
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Jasper A. »

According to World of Port on Facebook:

Amongst others following Winery announces a Vintage Port 2015:
Alves De Sousa Wines
Cockburn's Port
Graham's Port - Stone Terrace VP
Niepoort Vinhos - VP & Bioma VP
Quinta de Marrocos
Quinta do Noval
Quinta do Tedo - VP & VP Savedra
Quinta Vale D. Maria - VP & vanZeller VP
Quinta do Vale Meão

Some of those are new for me.
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Andy Velebil »

Jasper A. wrote:According to World of Port on Facebook:

Amongst others following Winery announces a Vintage Port 2015:
Alves De Sousa Wines
Cockburn's Port
Graham's Port - Stone Terrace VP
Niepoort Vinhos - VP & Bioma VP
Quinta de Marrocos
Quinta do Noval
Quinta do Tedo - VP & VP Savedra
Quinta Vale D. Maria - VP & vanZeller VP
Quinta do Vale Meão

Some of those are new for me.
Makes sense as most of these declare fairly regularly. As time goes on and there becomes less reliance on the "big guys" and more and more Single Quinta producers putting out excellent VP's, the "Classic Declaration" as we know it is going to go away. It's just a matter when.
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Thomas V
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Thomas V »

Updated

Added Quinta da Casa Amarela as well per the Danish importer.
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Mike K. »

I was at a upscale port tasting last week with the local Symington rep.
He poured Cockburn 1977 VP among other things.

For what it's worth he said that 2016 was looking to be even better than 2015, and since there is an aversion to declaring back-to-back vintages many houses might skip 2015 and wait to declare 2016.

Cockburn's 2015 Bicentenary being an exception due to the anniversary year.
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Andy Velebil »

Mike K. wrote:I was at a upscale port tasting last week with the local Symington rep.
He poured Cockburn 1977 VP among other things.

For what it's worth he said that 2016 was looking to be even better than 2015, and since there is an aversion to declaring back-to-back vintages many houses might skip 2015 and wait to declare 2016.

Cockburn's 2015 Bicentenary being an exception due to the anniversary year.
The one thing that 2016 offered was the start-stop nature of it. It was so drawn out that producers could really earmark small section and pick them at the perfect phenological ripeness, coming back to other sections later when they were ready. Instead of picking all at once, or within a short amount of time, and not being able to properly ferment those large lots on their own.

Think of it this way; A winery has only so much space per day, or over multiple days, to deal with the grapes once they come into the winery. If you have 3 lagars and you've got 5 lots of different grapes that arrive at the winery all at one time you're gonna have to combine some of those lots of grapes together whether you want to or not. You then lose some control of your final product because you can't process each small lot individually. If you are able to slow down the harvest, as in 2016, you can ferment every different lot on their own, later picking the best lots, and combine them to make a great product.
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Roy Hersh
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Roy Hersh »

I was at a upscale port tasting last week with the local Symington rep.
He poured Cockburn 1977 VP among other things.

For what it's worth he said that 2016 was looking to be even better than 2015, and since there is an aversion to declaring back-to-back vintages many houses might skip 2015 and wait to declare 2016.

Cockburn's 2015 Bicentenary being an exception due to the anniversary year.
Mike K. please tell your local Symington rep that he should not speculate and disseminate fake news which is utterly worthless. :beat:

Graham's and their Stone Terraces, Cockburn's, Dow's, Quinta do Vesuvio have ALL declared 2015. I believe Warre's as well, but that has not been verified. Just the facts. :scholar:
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Thomas V
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Thomas V »

Roy Hersh wrote: Graham's and their Stone Terraces, Cockburn's, Dow's, Quinta do Vesuvio have ALL declared 2015. I believe Warre's as well, but that has not been verified. Just the facts. :scholar:
Haven't seen that on their blog? Is that public knowledge?
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Mike K. »

Roy Hersh wrote:Mike K. please tell your local Symington rep that he should not speculate and disseminate fake news which is utterly worthless.

Graham's and their Stone Terraces, Cockburn's, Dow's, Quinta do Vesuvio have ALL declared 2015. I believe Warre's as well, but that has not been verified. Just the facts.
I'm definitely aware that a well educated consumer generally knows more than any industry rep. I was mostly intrigued by his statement that a producer might 'skip' declaring a vintage in order to avoid back-to-back declarations.

Is that a thing? Is it considered poor form to declare two years in a row?
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Glenn E. »

Mike K. wrote:
Roy Hersh wrote:Mike K. please tell your local Symington rep that he should not speculate and disseminate fake news which is utterly worthless.

Graham's and their Stone Terraces, Cockburn's, Dow's, Quinta do Vesuvio have ALL declared 2015. I believe Warre's as well, but that has not been verified. Just the facts.
I'm definitely aware that a well educated consumer generally knows more than any industry rep. I was mostly intrigued by his statement that a producer might 'skip' declaring a vintage in order to avoid back-to-back declarations.

Is that a thing? Is it considered poor form to declare two years in a row?
The short answers are yes and yes. :lol:

The long answers are more complicated. :wink:

Perhaps the best example of producers "skipping" a vintage in order to avoid back-to-back declarations happened in 1991/1992. The Symingtons were very happy with their product in 1991 and wanted to declare. But 1992 was a major anniversary for Taylor Fladgate, so they wanted to declare 1992. Taylor made noises about their 1991 not being good enough, and the Symingtons made noises about their 1992, so we ended up with a split declaration.

As for whether or not it's considered poor form... I'd say not really. I believe it's more a matter of wanting to regulate what's available in the market, and a full declaration 2 years in a row probably (at least in the producers' views) puts too much high-end product in the market at the same time. That, in turn, puts pressure on prices... so best to just avoid it.
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Bert VD »

but they can always hold vintages in stock for a longer time and release it years after to avoid market flooding.
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Roy Hersh »

Along with what Glenn mentions above, the reputation of one's house, is judged over time by the Vintage Ports they decide to declare. Nobody is making overall judgements of a Port shipper based on their LBV and TWAIOA etc. It is the king of Ports, the Vintage Port, which determine the status of a Port shipper ... with few examples, (e.g. S. Leonardo / Quinta do Mourão due to their face as a Tawny specialist. Of course there are others in this niche as well).

Declarations or the lack thereof, become part of history. When you mention 1931 ... what is the first thing that comes to mind? 1945 ... 1994 ... 2011? So goes the reputation of a Port shipper. When historic mainstream Port players like Cockburn's failed to declare 1977 and Noval chose 1978 instead of 1977, it was a fairly big deal. Split declarations too. I remember very well the 1991/1992 split as I was in Portugal to learn of this, first hand ... especially from the Symington's perspective.

Now that the SFE has declared 2015, if the "whispers" of TFP going with 2016 become reality in 9 days (4/23 when they always announce their decision) ... this is going to bring a lot of excitement and controversy and headlines for the Port trade. Port lovers like us will be focused on which vintage is "better". But all media attention that will surround a general or split declaration will be a good thing for the entire industry, (not to mention the ever increasing levels of tourism).

Fun times! :thumbsup:
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Andy Velebil »

Roy Hersh wrote:Along with what Glenn mentions above, the reputation of one's house, is judged over time by the Vintage Ports they decide to declare. Nobody is making overall judgements of a Port shipper based on their LBV and TWAIOA etc. It is the king of Ports, the Vintage Port, which determine the status of a Port shipper ... with few examples, (e.g. S. Leonardo / Quinta do Mourão due to their face as a Tawny specialist. Of course there are others in this niche as well).

Declarations or the lack thereof, become part of history. When you mention 1931 ... what is the first thing that comes to mind? 1945 ... 1994 ... 2011? So goes the reputation of a Port shipper. When historic mainstream Port players like Cockburn's failed to declare 1977 and Noval chose 1978 instead of 1977, it was a fairly big deal. Split declarations too. I remember very well the 1991/1992 split as I was in Portugal to learn of this, first hand ... especially from the Symington's perspective.

Now that the SFE has declared 2015, if the "whispers" of TFP going with 2016 become reality in 9 days (4/23 when they always announce their decision) ... this is going to bring a lot of excitement and controversy and headlines for the Port trade. Port lovers like us will be focused on which vintage is "better". But all media attention that will surround a general or split declaration will be a good thing for the entire industry, (not to mention the ever increasing levels of tourism).

Fun times! :thumbsup:
Where has SFE fully declared each and every house of theirs? So far they've announced Stone Terrace and Cockburn's. The latter related to their anniversary. I'm sure Vesuvio will be, being a SQ. But their press release seems to indicate Graham's won't be.

As for your other comments, I think relying on what has gone on in the past is fraught with problems in the current age. A lot has changed in a short time frame. No longer is the world overly concerned about what the few remaining "big guys" do. In the past, they were the ones who controlled the market, who was known by most, and thus were the ones who sold the most. With social media fueling people's buying habits, the stage has changed dramatically over the past decade. Look at how successful so many smaller producers have become in so short a time. Not to mention the world is now keenly aware that the Douro is one massive different viticulture region and just because producer A didn't make a good VP in a given year doesn't mean producer B didn't either. The producers are very aware of these changes and adapting to them at a rapid pace, I'd argue far more than most of us want to acknowledge.

For a variety of reasons, including the above, I will bet the "Classic Declaration" as we've known it in the past is very quickly going the way of the Dodo Bird.
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Roy Hersh »

Trust me, the SFE declaration is for real. I am not sure if they have publicly announced it yet, or not. So you can say you heard it here first. :scholar: :mrgreen:
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Roy Hersh »

Andy,

You give far too much credit to the .25% of the world that is the Port geek community like FTLOP and TPF. Even most wine enthusiasts don't pay that close attention. The average wine drinker who occasionally invests in a new generally declared year, still looks to the 3x / decade model for their buy ins. We can agree to disagree on that point, dodo birds or otherwise.

While we both know that the general declarations no longer have the same meaning they did years back, I really don't believe that matters to the vast majority of non-geek Port buyers. [shrug.gif]
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Eric Menchen »

Bert VD wrote:but they can always hold vintages in stock for a longer time and release it years after to avoid market flooding.
But that doesn't get the advantage of the hype. A very large part of the VP market is looking to buy at the two year point when the release is expected. Although the exact timing might be different, the same goes for other many other wine regions as well, e.g. Bordeaux.
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Andy Velebil »

Roy Hersh wrote:Andy,

You give far too much credit to the .25% of the world that is the Port geek community like FTLOP and TPF. Even most wine enthusiasts don't pay that close attention. The average wine drinker who occasionally invests in a new generally declared year, still looks to the 3x / decade model for their buy ins. We can agree to disagree on that point, dodo birds or otherwise.

While we both know that the general declarations no longer have the same meaning they did years back, I really don't believe that matters to the vast majority of non-geek Port buyers. [shrug.gif]
You're still ignoring the industry. Some major players have publicly said they have no issues "declaring" back to back if the quality is good enough. That's a major departure from the past century. It really comes down to publicity. Hype up a poor vintage and people will still buy it. Downplay a good vintage and people won't. Regardless, the current "classic declaration" is not what it was in the past, never will regain that aura, and will continue to become less and less important over time as producers release what is, for them, a very good vintage and their publicity behind it.

As for non-port-nerd buyers, they look at scores and hype. A wine gets a great score or some online hype and it sells like hotcakes. If it doesn't, it doesn't sell. Let's face it, VP is great product with an image problem....it takes 30+ years to mature and it's still associated with old rich people in smoking jackets. And the world has changed, not nearly as many people are looking at cellaring a Port for that long. Why do you think so much less VP is made now than 30 years ago? And why do you think that Tawny's are taking off like hot cakes. No need to wait, they are ready to go from release. Lets also discuss the costs of making a VP versus what they sell for. Sure it's a great bargain for the consumer, but in reality it's terrible from a company accountant's view.

As I've said, VP is romantic, historical, and what not. It's also fighting a tough battle with a quickly changing consumer. I think we're now starting to see a massive shift in the industry (and I didn't even get into dry wines, LOL).
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Roy Hersh »

You know, while it is easy to say that they are happy to produce back to back vintages ... they have not gone ahead and ever shown us that they will do that ... yet. So until the day where that does happen, I don't believe the boasts or conjecture. When we someday see this put into practice, your point will be far more valid. And we are talking about the two big guns here, obviously not the SQVP. So, I am not ignoring the industry, Andy; I am solely focused on facts of what has already taken place ... or not; and won't be buying into what someone hears. Like what the SYM rep said to Mike K. above, speculation and conjecture are fraught with mistakes.

While I certainly was one of the very first to put in writing, the possibility of the demise of the general declaration due to SQVP production enabling any year to be declared, the unofficial tradition of declaring 3x per decade, has in fact, remained intact. Whether anyone really cares anymore, we can argue that point forever. [friends.gif]

As for the image: we disagree there too, which makes for fun reading for the rest of this community, viewing our discussion. While there may be some lingering old school thoughts about Port and the old image ... there is a TON of new energy, young people buying Port, Port clubs springing up, woman now far more into Port than ever before, loads of young people buying in for the very first time, Port in cocktails, modernized packaging and especially marketing. Additionally, education is FAR better than a decade ago, but obviously more can always help.

Also your comment about VP taking 30 years to mature ... is somewhat anachronistic. Yes, the people on the the major forums about Port, often prefer the well-aged secondary and tertiary notes of a VP. However, in the past, the way the Vintage Ports were produced, did not intend for them to be drinkable in their youth. Port took a good decades to be approachable. That hasn't been the case and changed starting with 1997, with intent. And ever since, Port houses have been making subtle changes, e.g. tannin management and improved aguardente, so that Port doesn't "have to" be cellared for 20 years, no less 30 years in order to be drinkable.

But I think that the needle on the Port image thing has moved quite a bit in the past decade. Just look at the young tourists who now flock to Porto and the Douro. Things have progressed and continue to improve ... in my view ... significantly. Can they still improve from here? Definitely. But this is not 2000 anymore, where that view was spot on.

Your comment about less production seems off to me. There has been no general declaration since 2011. So let's look at that one, because otherwise, we are going back a decade to 2007. Yes, 3 general declarations in the past dozen years, (taking us back to 2005, when 2003 was declared, just to be clear). So in 2011 ... you had the biggest decrease in beneficio ... maybe EVER, if not in a generation or more. PLUS the yields were ridiculously low. Both factored into a tiny release by most of the shippers/producers.

If you are talking about reductions in production prior to the 2011 ... please bring on the proof, to back up your theory. [berserker.gif]

As for why Tawny (and especially Colheita) has taken off in recent years ... I believe that has a lot more to do with younger people liking that profile a lot. In fact, when I bring groups to Portugal, I am surprised that year in and year out, I am seeing more and more of our guests, beginners, intermediates and serious geeks ... with a preference to wood-aged Ports nowadays. The Vintage Port is still loved by all guests, but preferences are definitely changing. Like the British who were weaned on VP, the younger generations of Port drinkers are exposed to the wood-aged Ports every bit as much as bottle-aged Ports and the pricing likely enters into this too.

Respectfully,

Roy
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Re: 2015 Vintage Declarations

Post by Andy Velebil »

Roy Hersh wrote:
While I certainly was one of the very first to put in writing, the possibility of the demise of the general declaration due to SQVP production enabling any year to be declared, the unofficial tradition of declaring 3x per decade, has in fact, remained intact. Whether anyone really cares anymore, we can argue that point forever. [friends.gif]
And I'm arguing it's becoming less and less important as time goes on. It's a practice that started due to a lack of modern technology and modern wine making and viticulture techniques. Time is making it obsolete.

Also your comment about VP taking 30 years to mature ... is somewhat anachronistic. Yes, the people on the the major forums about Port, often prefer the well-aged secondary and tertiary notes of a VP. However, in the past, the way the Vintage Ports were produced, did not intend for them to be drinkable in their youth. Port took a good decades to be approachable. That hasn't been the case and changed starting with 1997, with intent. And ever since, Port houses have been making subtle changes, e.g. tannin management and improved aguardente, so that Port doesn't "have to" be cellared for 20 years, no less 30 years in order to be drinkable.
That's not what Port producers are saying. They are saying they will last every bit as long or longer before maturing. Just saying, LOL. Oh, and are they really THAT much easier to drink in their youth? They're still brooding tannic, acidic, beasts. Not exactly fun for casual sipping for most types of wine drinkers.
But I think that the needle on the Port image thing has moved quite a bit in the past decade. Just look at the young tourists who now flock to Porto and the Douro. Things have progressed and continue to improve ... in my view ... significantly. Can they still improve from here? Definitely. But this is not 2000 anymore, where that view was spot on.
Porto tourism is popular because the rest of Europe has security issues and Portugal, thankfully so far, does not. It's the new trendy spot, that will end like Prague and a whole host of other trendy places before it. Actually, Porto has a very dangerous issue brewing due to it becoming so popular.
Your comment about less production seems off to me. There has been no general declaration since 2011. So let's look at that one, because otherwise, we are going back a decade to 2007. Yes, 3 general declarations in the past dozen years, (taking us back to 2005, when 2003 was declared, just to be clear). So in 2011 ... you had the biggest decrease in beneficio ... maybe EVER, if not in a generation or more. PLUS the yields were ridiculously low. Both factored into a tiny release by most of the shippers/producers.
Do you honestly think we will ever see VP production levels like we did in the 1980's and before? I don't.
As for why Tawny (and especially Colheita) has taken off in recent years ... I believe that has a lot more to do with younger people liking that profile a lot. In fact, when I bring groups to Portugal, I am surprised that year in and year out, I am seeing more and more of our guests, beginners, intermediates and serious geeks ... with a preference to wood-aged Ports nowadays. The Vintage Port is still loved by all guests, but preferences are definitely changing. Like the British who were weaned on VP, the younger generations of Port drinkers are exposed to the wood-aged Ports every bit as much as bottle-aged Ports and the pricing likely enters into this too.
So based on this we agree that VP is becoming less important as tawny's are increasing....as I said, times are a changing. [friends.gif]
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