British vs. American Port palates

[Roy Hersh]

In 2001, Port guru James Suckling wrote:

Some Englishmen consider Americans barbarians since we drink our Port much too young. Plenty of people in the States are already drinking 1997s and 1994s. In a perfect "English world" those wines wouldn't be drunk for another 20 years. However, I often point out to the British that their ancestors drank vintage Port only four or five years after it was bottled. In the book Port Wine and Oporto (printed in the 1930s), Ernest Cockburn wrote that gentlemen in some of London's most exclusive men's clubs were drinking vintage Ports just five or six years old. In the 1930s, they were more than happy to be drinking 1920, 1922 and 1924 vintages. In essence, we Americans are simply upholding a long-established British tradition.


What is your opinion?

[Mike K.]

I enjoy drinking them young as well as aged. It is a different experience. And impatience often forces the choice :)

[Andy Velebil]

This is a pet peeve of mine because it is just a British "We're better than others when it comes to wine" way of thinking. Don't get me wrong, American's have a similar way of thinking for other things. But when it comes to wine and Port Brit's think they are better, it is what it is. However, it is totally not true. One has to look at two distinct periods of time for both countries, pre-WW2 and post-WW2. Pre WW2 both countries had very definitive rich and poor classes, there wasn't a lot of middle class like there is today. One either had the means to buy, cellar, and drink older wines or one didn't. For the USA a lot of that was concentrated on the longer established and politically concentrated in eastern states. It was normal to drink wines young AND to age them in the underground cellars of large estate homes in both countries. Simply, as without active refrigeration all food was stored underground to keep it cool. So one simply kept the wine there as well. But your average poor family wasn't buying excessive amounts of wine beyond cheap "daily drinkers" to consume at dinner, if they even had the means to buy it in the first place. This was largely limited to those wealthy enough to do so. In the UK that was far more concentrated than in the sprawling massive land mass of the States. So you can see how perception due to a heavy concentration in an area eventually became a "fact."

Post WW2 was the emergence of a true middle class that could afford to buy, cellar, and drink wines they didn't have the means to before. However, in regards to Port the bigger issue was the Port trade wasn't doing all that well and struggled to sell Ports until the late 60's to early 70's when things finally started to improve and sales started going up in both countries. By then with active cooling now available it had become far easier for people to cellar wine. Coupled with that increase in people with extra cash to buy wine we've seen a large increase in those wanting to cellar things.

This is a pretty broad overview as there are other things as well, such as changing tastes and traditions (just see how in recent years many British Universities have sold off massive cellars of Port). Also it's not as acceptable for business people to have long alcohol laden lunches as in the past and drunk driving laws have also effected peoples consumption and thus buying habits.

In short, if you look back over time both countries have consumed young AND old Ports and wines. The Brit's just love to give the allusion they don't. Oh, and don't forget for many decades USA was the largest consumer of Madeira in the world, more of it was consumed per year than any other alcohol. The Brit's tend to forget this and think we only started buying fortified wine this past century.

[Moses Botbol]

In short, if you look back over time both countries have consumed young AND old Ports and wines. The Brit's just love to give the allusion they don't. Oh, and don't forget for many decades USA was the largest consumer of Madeira in the world, more of it was consumed per year than any other alcohol. The Brit's tend to forget this and think we only started buying fortified wine this past century.

An olde adage; "Madeira is for America and Port is for Britain".

[Glenn E.]

I think that the biggest difference is that the British generally don't drink Tawnies much, if at all.

Which is a good thing. More for us!

[Andy Velebil]

I think that the biggest difference is that the British generally don't drink Tawnies much, if at all.

Which is a good thing. More for us!

Hah, what they say and do are two different things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Roy Hersh]

I would like to hear from some of our UK based friends.

Please don't shy away now. We do care what you think!

[Tom Archer]

I think there is virtually no difference in terms of palate between the US and UK, as we are, genetically, extremely close.

But there are other factors. The UK is blessed (cursed?) with a temperate climate that enables port to be kept well with very little attention. Badly stored bottles do sometimes come onto the secondary market, but they are a small minority of the total offered. Much of the US sees either occasional or regular summer heat waves that have the potential to be ruinous to fine wines, should a cooling system fail - it's much more of a struggle to care for bottles over a period of decades in the US.

Did the British drink their port young decades ago? No more than they do today, I think. We have a legacy of excess production, mostly from the 60s and 70s, when VP was bought en masse by British companies (brewers in particular) as a tax avoidance exercise. Whilst some of this excess production has found its way across the pond, it has also enabled British port enthusiasts to drink an older window without breaking the bank.

In addition, the British built environment is much older than that in the US - at nearly 150 years, my home is barely considered 'old' - this familiarity with things of relative antiquity makes the consumption of aged wines a little more 'normal' and a little less 'special' than is perhaps the case in the USA..

[Phil W]

Many factors could be relevant to consideration of palate variation between geographically distant populations (which need not be US/UK but would apply equally well to others). Typical food and lifestyle issues can affect palate (for example preferences or dislikes for sweeter foods, dairy) which could easily affect like/dislike of different port types, if not palate itself.

Environmental factors could have several effects, both on storage practicality (the general temperatures encountered, whether buildings are built with cellars or not etc) and the consequence on stored wine and how it has been matured, as well as potential drinking preference (such as a preference for ruby in cooler times/climes, or tawny in hotter).

Whether these affect the palate itself, I have no idea, and think it would be very hard to tell since palate is so subjective anyway; but they could certainly affect preference.

[Al B.]

JDAW recently finished writing (and self pre-published) a book that is intended to be a definitive list of all vintage ports ever shipped. He has trawled through old wine brochures, auction catalogues, university cellar records, livery company wine committee meeting minutes and just about every other possible source of evidence you can think of to come up with a complete list of all the vintage ports which were commercialised in the UK in the period 1750-1985.

I did a little proof reading for him and was surprised by what I was reading. I like my vintage port best either on release or when it is in the 30-100 year range (1987-1917) and had the prejudiced understanding that tradition in the UK was that the UK had always bought, cellared, matured and then drunk old port. I had always been taught that port should be cellared and not opened until it reached the age of majority at 21, at which point it would be ready for drinking and would last a lifetime.

I was stunned when I did my proof-reading for JDAW and found that some of the traditional large British buyers of port (the Livery Companies, the London Clubs, the University Colleges) were buying a pipe, bottling it, cellaring it - and then drinking it about 10 years later. That's like drinking 2003 vintage port today - right at the point where it is about as shut-down as it ever gets! It was really interesting to see this little piece of reality. One of my pet frustrations is that on the one hand we (and the port trade) worry about the future of our favourite drink since fewer people seem to be buying and drinking it while on the other hand the port trade release onto the market a wine which I'm not convinced is in its drinking window (the 2004 vintage, for example). I wonder how many people buy a bottle of 2004 vintage port from the supermarket, open it and are unimpressed by the awkward and gangly wine they drink. A late release 1994 or 1997 would be so much more impressive; or a young fruit bomb of a wine from 2014 would be more likely to hook a new consumer.

I also agree with Andy that it is easier today to store wine for the long term than it used to be. My house was built in the 1950s, it has no cellar but I still have the space to store 150 bottles at home in ideal conditions in a wine cabinet and a few more bottles in offsite storage facilities. They are kept in the cool, the dark and vibration free. I can take the longer view and indulge my delight in drinking port in the age range I want to. If I had been born 50 years earlier I would likely not have been able to.

But Andy - you make the statement that

...just see how in recent years many British Universities have sold off massive cellars of Port..."

What source can you offer for this? I only know of one (which was sold in 2011 and could hardly have been described as massive since it only consisted of 122 bottles of port ranging from Malvedos 1976 to Fonseca 1985).

[Tom Archer]

There's not much evidence of the colleges selling port in volume, but they have been drinking them through and not replenishing stocks it seems - they tend to be a bit shy when it comes to discussing the content of their cellars though..

In building up my own cellar, I've often wondered who the real competition are - I keep putting out feelers in the hope of finding someone with a massive family legacy under the floorboards, but I never get to hear of one, let alone meet the owner. It is also noticeable that at auction, sales of port collections that exceed a hundred bottles are few and far between now (setting aside the occasional clutch of youngish owcs bought as an investment)

It does feel as though big British cellars have gone the way of dinosaurs..

[Roy Hersh]

Alex, please let Julian know, that I'd be very happy to help him promote his book. Beyond TPF, I don't know how or what he has in mind for marketing his book, but like the article he wrote on moving the IVDP to allow large format bottles to be sold, (which I spent a ton of time convincing him that I had the best of intentions in helping him receive the credit he justly deserved) and also his placemat software ... I am here to offer him FREE access to FTLOP's newsletter, FB, Forum and any other way I can help him reach Port lovers. I hope he sees this or you or Tom, Derek etc. please do share this with Julian.

[Mahmoud Ali]

In 2001, Port guru James Suckling wrote:

Some Englishmen consider Americans barbarians since we drink our Port much too young. Plenty of people in the States are already drinking 1997s and 1994s. In a perfect "English world" those wines wouldn't be drunk for another 20 years. However, I often point out to the British that their ancestors drank vintage Port only four or five years after it was bottled. In the book Port Wine and Oporto (printed in the 1930s), Ernest Cockburn wrote that gentlemen in some of London's most exclusive men's clubs were drinking vintage Ports just five or six years old. In the 1930s, they were more than happy to be drinking 1920, 1922 and 1924 vintages. In essence, we Americans are simply upholding a long-established British tradition.

What is your opinion?

If I look at the Suckling quote with a critical eye I find many promblems with it.

It may well be true that "some" Englishmen consider Americans barbarians when it come to drinking young ports. However it is equally possible to state that some Englishmen also drink their ports too young. Equally, there are Americans who drink old ports. There are likely all sorts of people who consider some other group barbarians for a whole host of reasons.

As for the the idea that "because gentlemen in some exclusive men's clubs were drinking vintage ports just five or six years old" back in the 30s makes it a long-established tradition is rather silly. A long-established tradition is one that continues to this day. Times change. Otherwise one could argue that a club today that excludes women and Jews (among others) is now upholding a long established tradition.

My opinion of the Suckling comment: "I'm 65 points on that!"

Cheers .................. Mahmoud.

[Al B.]

Just as a matter of interest, the London Clubs which James Suckling refers to are currently drinking vintage ports along the lines of Warre 1983 and Fonseca Guimaraens 1998 (Naval & Military), Vargellas 2001 (Army & Navy), Graham 1970 / Warre 1985 / Dow 1985 / Taylor 1985 / Gould Campbell 1977 / Vesuvio 1992 (Carlton), Croft Roeda 2002 (City University), Taylor 1985 / Fonseca 1985 / Graham 1985 (East India), Dow 1994 (National Liberal), Fonseca 1985 / Taylor 1997 (Oxford & Cambridge), Smith Woodhouse 1994 / Fonseca 1985 / Dow 1985 / Malvedos 1998 (Traveller's). Some of these clubs, such as the Oxford & Cambridge sell steady amounts of port by the glass so they get through a decanter of Fonseca 1985 at the bar every couple of days.

There's not much evidence of the colleges selling port in volume, but they have been drinking them through and not replenishing stocks it seems - they tend to be a bit shy when it comes to discussing the content of their cellars though..

In building up my own cellar, I've often wondered who the real competition are - I keep putting out feelers in the hope of finding someone with a massive family legacy under the floorboards, but I never get to hear of one, let alone meet the owner. It is also noticeable that at auction, sales of port collections that exceed a hundred bottles are few and far between now (setting aside the occasional clutch of youngish owcs bought as an investment)

It does feel as though big British cellars have gone the way of dinosaurs..

I guess it depends on what you mean by "big". Last time I was at the Oxford & Cambridge Club I asked the wine waiter how many bottles they had left of the Fonseca 1985. His answer was "We're down to our last 900 or so bottles. That should keep us going 2-3 years." I get the impression that many of the London Clubs I mention above still have fairly large stocks of port and turn them over effectively.

And while - perhaps - large hereditary port cellars are a thing of the past there are a not insubstantial number of people like you and me but who are not on either FTLOP or TPF so we wouldn't see them very often. Berry Brother's sell out 2 Port Walks per year now, that's about 100 people who have the income and interest to shop at Berry's and to learn about port. There are a couple of faces I see at Berry's most years but who are not members of TPF. These could be the people who are buying at auction and building up their cellars.

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

Alex, please let Julian know, that I'd be very happy to help him promote his book. Beyond TPF, I don't know how or what he has in mind for marketing his book, but like the article he wrote on moving the IVDP to allow large format bottles to be sold, (which I spent a ton of time convincing him that I had the best of intentions in helping him receive the credit he justly deserved) and also his placemat software ... I am here to offer him FREE access to FTLOP's newsletter, FB, Forum and any other way I can help him reach Port lovers. I hope he sees this or you or Tom, Derek etc. please do share this with Julian.

Thank you. I will need promotion — you’re on — but before then need a publisher. Are any of your registered members known to be publishers?

(Willing to pre-sell copies. No problem. Need publisher with pre-sell capability, with print and distribute capability, who has sold more than zero large reference books.)

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

Some Englishmen consider Americans barbarians since we drink our Port much too young. Plenty of people in the States are already drinking 1997s and 1994s. In a perfect "English world" those wines wouldn't be drunk for another 20 years. However, I often point out to the British that their ancestors drank vintage Port only four or five years after it was bottled. In the book Port Wine and Oporto (printed in the 1930s), Ernest Cockburn wrote that gentlemen in some of London's most exclusive men's clubs were drinking vintage Ports just five or six years old. In the 1930s, they were more than happy to be drinking 1920, 1922 and 1924 vintages. In essence, we Americans are simply upholding a long-established British tradition.

• Light confusion of English and British.
• We traditionally drank Port young, that is, 15 to 25 years after the harvest. 5 was oddly young.

when it comes to wine and Port Brit's think they are better

What about matters relating to above-the-line punctuation? Are we allowed to believe that we are ‘better’?

Post WW2 was the emergence of a true middle class that could afford to buy, cellar, and drink wines they didn't have the means to before. However, in regards to Port the bigger issue was the Port trade wasn't doing all that well and struggled to sell Ports until the late 60's to early 70's when things finally started to improve and sales started going up in both countries. By then with active cooling now available it had become far easier for people to cellar wine. Coupled with that increase in people with extra cash to buy wine we've seen a large increase in those wanting to cellar things.

Immediate post-WW2 UK was in financial trouble. It took until the ’63 vintage for that.

An olde adage; "Madeira is for America and Port is for Britain".

Yes, but for English reasons. The (circa) 1658 Shipping Act, not unlike the 1920 Jones Act, required that European wines going to English colonies had to go on English bottoms via English harbours. But Madeira, being an African wine, was exempt, so could more cheaply go directly to the Atlantic coast of what is now the USA.

In addition, the British built environment is much older than that in the US - at nearly 150 years, my home is barely considered 'old' - this familiarity with things of relative antiquity makes the consumption of aged wines a little more 'normal' and a little less 'special' than is perhaps the case in the USA..

Hadn’t thought of that.

JDAW recently finished writing (and self pre-published) a book that is intended to be a definitive list of all vintage ports ever shipped. He has trawled through old wine brochures, auction catalogues, university cellar records, livery company wine committee meeting minutes and just about every other possible source of evidence you can think of to come up with a complete list of all the vintage ports which were commercialised in the UK in the period 1750-1985.

Currently proof-reading the index. What I have concluded is that in a previous life I was very naughty.

As for the the idea that "because gentlemen in some exclusive men's clubs were drinking vintage ports just five or six years old" back in the 30s makes it a long-established tradition is rather silly.

Anything that has happened at least once is traditional. Therefore anything that has not yet happened, but might happen, is proto-traditional. (Book recombination: The Invention of Tradition, edited by Eric Hobsbawm.)

[Al B.]

when it comes to wine and Port Brit's think they are better

What about matters relating to above-the-line punctuation? Are we allowed to believe that we are ‘better’?

Stop being naughty and mischievous! Andy knows you well enough just to roll his eyes at you , but others might not!