DAN CARBON - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Symington Family »

goncalo devesas wrote: About the casks, I read that the best oak casks, are the one´s that are smoked for 3 years and in each year they lose 1 to 2 cm thickness and the oak that they use come from trees with a century, the price of each one, around 750/800 US dollars...
Hi Gonçalo. I completely missed your question! And it’s a great question.

The casks we use to age the wines are made of Oak. Many of them are +50 years old and although I don’t think they lose 1-2cm a year, the staves need to be replaced now and then. Maintaining the some 3,500 barrels in the Graham’s lodge is a tremendous amount of work that can only be done by highly skilled craftsmen trained in the art of barrel making. The importance of barrel ageing to the quality and style of Port is such that the Symingtons have a full team of tanoeiros (the Portuguese term) working year-round, the last of its kind in the Port trade that I know of. Every one of the barrels is checked each year and repaired as needed. Nearly all of the work is done by hand, using the same hand tools as would have been used 100 years ago - it’s amazing to see.

You stirred my curiosity so I did some digging and thought I would share the details and history of the barrels with you.

During the 19th Century oak originating from Memel and Stettin in the Baltic was used for maturing Port, and towards the end of the Century and the early part of the 20th Century oak from New Orleans in North America was also favoured (Mardi Gras Port?). In 1932 Stettin oak became cheaper and many shippers began to use it extensively once more for their casks in the place of New Orleans oak. This supply from the Baltic dried up with the outbreak of the Second World War in 1939.

After the war Carpathian oak of the same type was obtained from Yugoslavia and more recently from the forests of Limousin and Allier in France.

Oak Casks have always been used in the ageing of Port as the permeability of the wood permits a gradual and controlled oxidation of the wine. Oak's tighter grain reduces evaporation and permits a slower and more controlled oxidation. Thus during the early part of the 20th Century when most Port was still shipped in cask, oak casks were used for maturing the Port while cheaper and more structurally robust chestnut casks of Italian, and Portuguese origin were used for shipping.

It is important to note that in the case of Port the new oak characteristics are undesirable, and therefore the casks must be extremely well seasoned (normally with red table wine so as to remove any wood flavour) before being put into use.
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Symington Family »

Moses Botbol wrote:Do the Symingtons have plans to expand beyond Douro and Madeira for Portuguese wine?
Have the Symingtons ever produced a Kosher wine or port?
No plans to expand beyond the Douro that I have heard. I don’t want to speak for them, but as you know the Symingtons are unique in that, in addition to the quintas their family business owns, the family members privately own vineyards in the Douro. Paul has a home in the middle of his vineyard, Netas, and his father lives nearby on an adjecent vineyard plot. Charles, Rupert, and Johnny all have their own vineyards also, as do many of the retired 3rd generation Symingtons. That is a completely different kind of involvement and level of commitment to the Douro than a producer that is buying-in grapes to make wine. The Douro is where their families have grow up for generations, I can’t imagine that they would expand into another wine making region.

No, Symington has never produced a Kosher wine or Port. I was curious and looked online and found only one Kosher Port called Cordovero Ruby made by Quinta and Vineyard Bottlers. It was getting generally good reviews if you are looking for one, although I am not sure about availability.
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Moses Botbol »

Symington Family wrote: No, Symington has never produced a Kosher wine or Port. I was curious and looked online and found only one Kosher Port called Cordovero Ruby made by Quinta and Vineyard Bottlers. It was getting generally good reviews if you are looking for one, although I am not sure about availability.
Someone here mentioned Taylor made a Kosher ruby port sold in UK. I think it would be interesting to do a couple of barrels of Kosher port as it would not be much more effort than non-kosher port. It could be aged for Colheitas.
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Symington Family »

Andy Velebil wrote:The Symington's are also involved in Madeira. Can you inform us as to their exact involvement? Are there any new, upcoming, Madeira things to expect in the near future (a new older release, younger Colheita, etc)?
Hi Andy.

That is correct, the Symingtons partnered with the Blandy family in 1989. The Blandy family has lived on the island of Madeira since 1811 with a long tradition of leading the trade through their portfolio of brands – Blandy, Miles, Leacock and Cossart Gordon – under the Madeira Wine Company banner. The Blandy family still live on the island and are involved in managing the business with the Symingtons. Since the Symington’s joined, bringing with them a long history of winemaking and high level of commercial expertise, the MWC brands, led by Blandy’s, have evolved significantly, both in terms of wine quality and packaging. In the last 5 years the entire Blandy range has been redesigned (winning a design award, I might add!) and a new Colheita concept was launched. There are a few things in the works, one that takes a cue from the very successful Blandy’s Alvada concept, but that will not be released until next year. Have you seen the new Blandy’s Colheitas? I put an image on Portraits and welcome your comments.
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Moses Botbol »

Symington Family wrote:In the last 5 years the entire Blandy range has been redesigned (winning a design award, I might add!) and a new Colheita concept was launched.
You mean the odd size bottles and familiar Otima looks? The Blandy's series is really good!
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Symington Family »

Andy Velebil wrote:Smith Woodhouse is one that typically flies under the radar, yet is a house that I've often enjoyed for some stunning Ports. However, there is not a lot of information about it on the web site (hint, hint :mrgreen: ). Other than Madalena, which is only about 6-7 hectares IIRC, are there any other Symington properties who's grapes go into the Smith Woodhouse Vintage Ports?
Smith Woodhouse also has some Colheita's, yet they aren't mentioned on the website (hint, hint again :evil: ). What years have been released so far and are what is the next Colheita year to be released?
We did a bit of promotion for Smith Woodhouse when the new packaging was launched in 2007. The strapline on the ads was ‘The Vintage Port for those who know’. I wish I could say the dearth of information is all part of the plan. But it’s not. Smith Woodhouse is great – the new packaging is unique and appealing and the wines often match or better the big names in Port. The fact is that it really should have an entire team devoted to it – alas, we are but 5 marketeers here in Porto, managing a portfolio of 8 Port brands a burgeoning portfolio of Douro table wines, and a countless number of Madeira brands, hundreds of wines in total (is that a tiny violin I hear?). OK,OK, Smith Woodhouse dot com will be added to the shortlist.

When I update the website you will learn that the wines from Madalena form the core of the Smith Woodhouse wines, but the quality and depth of the wines will be augmented by the addition of wines from Quinta do Vale Coelho (Rabbit Valley) in the Douro Superior. This new property, acquired from Cockburn, was substantially expanded with over 7 hectares of new vineyards planted. It is now a superb 11 hectare property, with a high percentage of old vines of +40 years, and a very interesting component of Souzão and Touriga Franca. With the addition of these wines in the years to come, Smith Woodhouse will only get better.

The Smith Woodhouse Colheitas are only sold in the US, so they are not listed on the website, which is accessed by clients worldwide. But that’s not a very good reason and something we can fix in short order. The current Smith Woodhouse Colheita is the ’94, which only recently replaced the ’86. The ’94 will continue for some years and only then will Rupert and the family assess the wines ageing in the Smith cellars and select the next Colheita.
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Symington Family »

Alan Gardner wrote:Welcome Dan,
My general question probably needs a book to answer:
‘With the replanting of vineyards to fewer varieties, combined with various sales/transfers of ‘core vineyards’; have there been some ‘changes’ in house styles of the major houses?’

To make this more specific, obviously Vesuvio has changed (and improved) dramatically. But I’m more interested in the major houses (specifically Warre’s but feel free to comment generally). For Warre, in particular, I think I’ve detected a ‘variation in style’ between older (1977 and prior) vintages, and ‘younger’ (1985 and subsequent) vintages. It must be emphasized that others on this Board have not detected such a change, so it is certainly possible that my palate is changing, but I haven’t detected a comparable ‘variation in style’ with Dow and Graham (as examples). Has anything ‘major’ changed with Warre’s (in particular), or other properties, that could lead to a change in ‘style’?
Hi Alan. Thanks for taking the time to ask this question.

First, I have to say that when I read your post on this topic in another thread I was tempted to reply with 'are you chewing gum', the line from Sideways that never fails to get me laughing. But I thought better of it (and probably should have in this case). In no way do I mean to disparage your tasting skills or downplay your question. Onward.

As far as intended changes to house styles as a result of the far more scientific approach to viticulture in the Douro vineyards; this has probably added complexity and certainly increased quality, but the intent of Peter and Charles and the family is to maintain continuity with the house style. Block replantings and a completely renovated winery with robotic lagares probably served to simply increase the quality of the wines. The core wines in the blend have been sourced from Retiro for generations, however Cavadinha was only purchased in 1980 - I suppose it's possible that you are detecting a difference as a result of Cavadinha taking on greater importance in the blend? I spoke with Charles a few hours ago and after quite a bit of consideration he could not think of any reason why there would be a noticeable change in style. So on this one, you have us stumped.

I think the best thing to do is a comprehensive Warre Vintage tasting, spanning the period of time in question, and see what we can come up with. Note I use 'we' in hopes of getting an invite.
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Alan Gardner »

Symington Family wrote:The core wines in the blend have been sourced from Retiro for generations, however Cavadinha was only purchased in 1980 - I suppose it's possible that you are detecting a difference as a result of Cavadinha taking on greater importance in the blend?
At least I now have an opportunity to investigate further.
Indeed I AM planning more tastings (tonight is Smith Woodhouse vs Warre: 85, 91, 94 - a group of about a dozen).
And in the works is indeed a Warre vertical for a group of about 80-100 - so far we have the 77, 80, 85, 91 and 94, together with the Cavadinha 92 - so that my well be an interesting event - perhaps the Cavadinha will show 'whatever it is that I'm detecting'. We also have the 2000 but that was bought to 'save' for a vintage 2000 tasting (in due course). Typically we have bottles as spares (in case of corked wines), so there's a good chance I will be able to purchase any leftover bottles, and can then add a 63 and 83 from my cellar. And just phoned a friend who can contribute a 1970 (bottled at Warre) as well.

So indeed the prospects are excellent (although there's a possibility that Roy might get here ahead of you!).

I suspect the biggest challenge will be to find someone ELSE to do the work on this - I desperately want to do this blind, so will try and avoid getting involved organisationally.
But if you ever make it to Toronto............

Thanks for investigating this on my behalf - I'm already searching for Cavadinhas!

And, if I may impose a supplementary question - should the 83 Warre be considered a 'pre-Cavadinha' or 'post Cavadinha'? Or perhaps we should wait and let me record what I think when I can arrange the tasting!
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Peter W. Meek »

Alan,

If you can, make it double blind. Each glass gets it own number and only the organizer knows which glasses contain which port. That way you cannot be influenced by a neighbor saying "I think #2 is xxxer than #3." You might have glass #s 1, 6, 43, and 67 while he has 22, 2, 99 and 11. I once set up a Pinot Grigio tasting like this with 5 wines and 6 people. The results were much different than the first tasting (same night, same bottles) with all wine A in glasses #1. In that test the results all clustered around the person at the table who was supposed to have the most refined palate. I think the rest unconsciously wanted to find that their tastes matched his. I was suspicious and asked to restage the tasting.
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Alan Gardner »

Peter W. Meek wrote:Alan,

If you can, make it double blind.
Thanks Peter - the trouble is that I am usually the organizer! The one person who 'doesn't want to know'. Last time we tried this with a 'rookie' organizer, we were never sure that the whole thing wasn't screwed up. Fortunately, I've made so many mistakes in identifying wines in the past, that I can't possibly be embarrassed any further, so I 'think' I can overcome knowledge of which wine is which. But I'll certainly try to make it 'as blind as possible' (e.g. for tonight's tasting I'll deliberately arrive late, so that all wines have been poured).
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Moses Botbol »

It's tough to be the one decanting then assume you are drinking them blind. Perhaps on a horizontal it is easier, but not a vertical. The color can give a few away.
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Symington Family »

Roy Hersh wrote:Forgetting about Shippers or "brands" for the moment ... what category of Port do you enjoy drinking the most?

At home what do you and Mrs. Carbon drink most often in terms of Port -- but also non-Portuguese wine?
For dinner tonight Shannon made a pasta dish with eggplant and mozzarella cheese, a favourite dish of ours. We had the new Altano Organic Wine with it. Perfect. The eggplant gives the sauce a grapey flavour that pairs beautifully with that wine. I probably would not have ever realized how good Portuguese wines are without having lived here. I lived in SF in the US for 8 years. A wonderfully varied food and wine culture, I tasted lots of different wines. I loved Chardonnay from Eden Valley, and most all of the reds from Napa, particularly the beefy Cabernets and Merlots with grilled steak. Chilean wines based on Malbec, South African Sauvignon Blancs (Cloudy Bay when I can, Villa Maria a solid standby). Gewustraminer with Thai. If its a celebration, its bubbly, espumante, cava, or champagne, Im pretty flexible. I think that there should always be a bottle in the fridge though - you never know. I am one quarter Italian, and wish I know more about Italian wines. my experience does not extend far beyond Barolo and Chianti (I will work on this). And I have developed a soft spot for red wines from France. Beaujolais is hard to find in Porto, but I love it. Also the wines from Graves, particularly Pessac-Léognan have caught my fancy for some reason. Same with Chateau Musar from Lebanon. When I went to Vinexpo last year I brought back as many bottles of Chateau de Fieuzal as I could fit in my bag (2 left). I enjoy Moscatel from Setubal here in the south of Portugal, or even better in my opinion, a late harvest like the one from Grandjó. And Sauternes. Oh yes. But if I had to choose one, it would be Port, hands down. A chilled 20 year tawny and a handful of almonds, a robust LBV with chocolate. I love it.

Tonight, I opened a half-bottle of Graham 2003. I know its too early and would be a lot better later. But it's so good.
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by goncalo devesas »

Thanks a lot, Dan,

wonderful explanation...so normally you buy casks that were already used for aging wine in France ?

You think that the type of casks used for in a 1st stage aging wine and then for Port could be that type ( 100y oak trees and smoked for 3 years ?

Do you know what is the average price for a barrel ?

I´m sorry being so boring but I´m trying to use your knowledge for this details... [notworthy.gif]

Thank you very much,

Gonçalo
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Roy Hersh »

Dan,

I like the sounds of Shannon's pasta dish with the eggplant and mozz. I bet it's yummy. May I make a suggestion. Try that with a young Dolcetto from Piedmont or a 5-10 year old Valpolicella Classico from the Veneto. Both are reasonably priced fantastic food wines, especially with a dish like the one you mentioned.

I am not surprised that you like Musar, it is a stunning wine, and by far the best of reds from Lebanon. I've had their whites and reds back to 1959 and these truly epitomize their terroir and the character that is their brilliant but contrarian winemaker, Serge Hochar. I like so many of the same wines and pairing and eat Thai food often so German and Alsatian Riesling, Gewurztraminer and also the Alsace version of Pinot Gris ... one of food & wines most endearing marriages.

Thanks for sharing and keep on experimenting with wines from all over the globe! :thumbsup:
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Roy Hersh »

I'm off for a glass of wine to try to think up a question to move this along...
Derek,

Great, that was two days ago ... are you still drinking that glass of wine(?) ... or struggling to come up with a tough enough question for Dan? :evil:

24 hours from now, your opPORTunity will be over.

Put the wine glass down! [kez_11.gif]
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Julian D. A. Wiseman »

[url=http://www.fortheloveofport.com/ftlopforum/viewtopic.php?p=49380#p49380]Here[/url] J. D. A. Wiseman wrote:Quarles Harris: seen and tasted only rarely by me.

Is QH a brand to be a purpose to otherwise idle grapes, or does it have stylistic consistency? If the latter, please say more?
Please don’t lose the question about Quarles Harris. A brand without a dedicated supply of grapes: does that imply an absence of ‘house style’?
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Derek T. »

Roy Hersh wrote:
I'm off for a glass of wine to try to think up a question to move this along...
Derek,

Great, that was two days ago ... are you still drinking that glass of wine(?) ... or struggling to come up with a tough enough question for Dan? :evil:

24 hours from now, your opPORTunity will be over.

Put the wine glass down! [kez_11.gif]
OK Dan, Roy has brought this upon you so here goes:

Without breaching commercial confidentiality, can you please describe the relationship and interactions between Symington Family Estates and Cockburn? Who owns what following the coming together? (quintas, new wines, old stocks, brands etc.) Who makes the decisions on wine making, blending, marketing etc? Are there plans to bring the Cockburn brand fully inside the Symington stable in the future? if so, when is that likely to be?

...and, as supplementary question, what are the long-term plans for the Martinez brand? It seems somewhat under-represented on the Symington websites despite the fact it appears, unlike Cockburn, to be wholly owned and under your control.

...and, as a second supplementary question, do you happen to know the circumstances that led to Quinta de Eira Velha falling into the ha nds of Taylor Fladgate at the same time as Martinez, a brand associated with the quinta for half a century, was brought into the Symington family?

Derek
Last edited by Derek T. on Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Roy Hersh »

So it is my fault? [foilhat.gif]


What have I done? [beg.gif]


Dan,

It is ok to pretend you've never seen Derek's post. [bye2.gif]

Damn, those are good questions. [shok.gif]
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Alan Gardner »

Alan Gardner wrote:(tonight is Smith Woodhouse vs Warre: 85, 91, 94 - a group of about a dozen).
Just to 'quickly' report while this discussion is still active.

First, one of the wines was corked, so that was a fun challenge - with all 6 it could have been a process of 'elimination' - but with only 5 we also had to determine which wine was 'missing'.

The good news (for me) was that I correctly identified all 6 wines - eventually. Although my first attempt found three 85's - but I managed to figure out the correct interloper(the corked bottle). So four of the 6 were 'good representations of what I expected. (And 3 people total, of 12, managed the same feat - some didn't attempt to identify).

However, I found it easier to identify the Smith Woodhouse wines. They each had a firmer backbone of acidity, which stood out - leaving the Warre as the 'remainder'. The 91 Smith Woodhouse was the corked bottle (so no acidity 'marker') and the Warre 91 was an easy pick as that same lactic taste existed in the finish (as it had in my original thread).

The 94 Warre was by far the favourite of the group - this is a great wine, and for me, its best showing in ages (incidentally it hadn't been 'well' cellared, so was probably more advanced than most other samples I've tried). And I DIDN'T find any lacticity (if that's a word) - the huge fruit just took over everything. Although drinking perfectly now, I didn't find the structure that I had expected. This one tasted at its peak.

My favourite was the 85 Warre - again the best showing in a couple of years. This time it was an easy pick as Warre's for the 'right' reasons; structure, fruit, length. Was there lactic? Not sure, my notes show 'plums and chocolate mousse' - could be interpreted either way.

For the record, Warre bested Smith Woodhouse across the board; and 94 bettered 85 with the 91's a VERY distant last place.
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Re: Dan Carbon - November's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Symington Family »

Roy Hersh wrote:Dan, It is ok to pretend you've never seen Derek's post.
You must be joking, I love these questions. I will answer them all, including the question about Quarles Harris, but to be honest, I just don't have the steam to do it tonight. Blame it on a rainy weekend with two little ones bouncing off the walls (those of you with children know what I mean)Please be patient and check by Monday- all will be revealed.

Last night I was out very late at a dinner party (which I have been paying for it all day). Chataeu Fieuzal, was bested by a really tasty Roriz Reserva 2000. A nice but simple late harvest from Concha Y Toro was a nice end to dinner.
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