GEORGE SANDEMAN - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

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Derek T.
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Re: George Sandeman - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Derek T. »

George,

Your answers on the Beneficio, Casa do Douro and IVDP Regulation were extremely interesting. Thank you.

In your response you allude to the fact that democracy can never result in a popular outcome for everyone. So, if you were able to become the omnipitant ruler of Oporto and the Douro for a day, what would be the three things you would change about the way the Port trade in its widest sense operates? You have a blank page and complete power - you can even ignore the EU Laws - and can have whatever you want.

Note: You are not allowed to say that you would introduce democracy!!
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Post by Peter W. Meek »

George Sandeman wrote:The Sandeman Tawny is an “English” style Gaia aged Tawny, differentiated from the Douro style Tawnies (which are more caramelized and toasted, referred to as “Douro burn”), and the Portuguese Tawnies which have less oxidised fruit.
So the Sandeman Tawny is light coloured, amber with gold highlights, aromas of almonds and honey, and flavours of dried fruits, nuts and honey, with a long clean finish.
Now we are speaking of the Ports I love. George, please expand on the difference between the two styles of tawny port. Recently, the other "S"-guys, stopped production of Nimrod, my absolute favorite tawny. I am frantically trying to find a replacement (5 case a year habit). To me, Nimrod was a very "nutty" port, and nothing so far, has answered, although I have tasted some very fine tawnys in the search.

If you are familiar with it, please say which style you think Nimrod is/was, and whether Sandeman (or other Sogrape brands) offer something like it. I live in a port-benighted place, and have to make a special effort to find and buy anything beyond the few choices here. Sandeman 20 will certainly go on my search-and-buy list based on the descriptions here, but are there any others?
--Pete
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Post by Tom D. »

Thanks very much, George. I believe I will soon be having my first experiences with the Offley Boa Vista VP.

Cheers.
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George Sandeman
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Derek

Very tempting! A blank page and complete power ignore the EU Laws and have whatever I want (need?)

But can I also ignore the history, the people, and the environment?

A real blank page? If so;

Maybe a “flatter” Douro growing region, rolling hills with cold wet winters, dry warm spring, a hot summer and no rain until after the harvest?

Maybe vineyards with high schist content, planted with only the ideal grape varieties for Port and Douro wines? Growers who understand the “raison d’etre” – to grow perfect quality grapes, sacrificing volume? A region where everyone has the single purpose of creating wines that are recognised for their unique quality worldwide?

Maybe regulations which create confidence in the consumer without an onerous burden of bureaucracy? Maybe the flexibility to make the styles and quality of wines that stand on their own without a bureaucratic classification process?

Maybe consumers, worldwide, who recognise the quality of Port and Douro wines and without preconception drink them (in moderation) in the many different ways, and at the many different times, that the divers range of flavours lend themselves to?

Maybe straighter roads with small villages and local inns for wine tourism – only a two hour drive from Oporto?

One quote I recall from Churchill (Port and Cigar man himself) “Democracy may not be perfect, but it is the best form of Government”. Usually it is the minority who are most vocal when they didn’t convince the democracy.

All best
George
Last edited by George Sandeman on Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
George Sandeman
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Re: George Sandeman - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Pete,
I know Nimrod, but to be frank haven’t tasted it for years. I recall it as being a 10 year old in style with quite evolved fruit. The 10 year olds available on the market are more fruit driven than years ago, possibly due to the popular demand.

We maintain three distinct styles of Tawnies, each with the individual characters based on the traditional house style.

It is from here that I draw the conclusion that the “English” style and the “Portuguese” style are distinct. The “English” (maybe better said “non-Portuguese” because it applies to other houses which are historically not Portuguese) style was more advanced in its evolution, probably due to greater racking off and aeration – so the colours are lighter, more yellow amber tawny with gold highlights and the aromas more nutty with dried fruit and honey, maybe a touch of vanilla.

The “Portuguese” style has greater fruit and less advanced colours, because the original fruit style is more values. The complexity is still good, but the mouthfill is greater. The colours are more red amber with yellow highlights, and there is more fruit in the taste.

Both are intense and should have a long clean finish – never cloyingly sweet or sugary.

The style I like the least is the Douro Tawny, which often is burned and shows up in the colour with slight browning or possibly greening in the very old wines. They tend to be slightly concentrated and intense, but often lack freshness and finish. I find them curious but tiring and only drink them when offered(!)

There has been an increasing influence of the Douro aged Tawnies in many wines, something that we have been able to avoid due to the pretty good ageing stocks that we have at Sandeman, Ferreira and Offley.

Besides the Sandeman 20 year Old Tawny there are two others that I particularly like (both slightly sweeter than Sandeman) Niepoort, made by Dirk Niepoort, and Ramos Pinto, made by João Nicolau d’Almeida (which curiously is more in the “non-Portuguese” style, throwing off my entire theory! Oops!)

All best
George
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Post by Frederick Blais »

Hello George,

In 2008 when I visited the Douro I've noticed the Offley Boa Vista Vineyard had been completly unrooted. Can we ask what is the decision behind this? Better choice of grapes, age of vines? How will this impact Offley or Sogapes wine/port in the near and longer future.
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Post by Andy Velebil »

George,

No conspiracy, well maybe a little :wink: :lol: :lol:

Seriously though, Thank you very much for such detailed answers to some very complex and sensitive issues. [notworthy.gif]

Interesting you mention the two styles of Tawny's. My two favorite 20 Year Old Tawny's are the Sandeman and Ferreira (a bottle I've been sipping on for the past few days), yet both are different stylistically. The Sandeman seems to fall more in the "English" category of a tawny with more nuts and higher acidity. The Ferreira has always come off as having more fruit to it ("Portuguese" as you called it). Would this be a correct assumption of their styles...or should I just have another glass of the Ferreira and stop typing now :P

- Is there any future plans for Ferreira to make a 30 or 40 year tawny?

- Ferreira made a 10 year old White Tawny, which I've had once and thought it was one of the better branco's out there. Has this been a good seller in the marketplace?

- Where do you see the future of white Port heading, and especially aged White Ports? (I also have to ask if you've ever made, seen, or tried, a White Vintage Port?) I ask as us Port nerds have occasionally inquired if anyone has ever tried making a White VP and if so what the outcome was.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Derek T.
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Re: George Sandeman - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Derek T. »

Andy Velebil wrote:I also have to ask if you've ever made, seen, or tried, a White Vintage Port?
I'm glad you restricted this question to White, Andy, and didn't use the "P" word [beg.gif] :Naughty:
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Derek T.
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Post by Derek T. »

George,

Thanks for your interesting responses - and there was me thinking you might have used your supreme powers to buy the Symington's, Taylor Fladgate, Sogevinus and the IVDP for 1 Euro each and make them all wear Sandeman Don capes and hats on their quintas :lol:

But I have to disagree with this one: "Maybe straighter roads with small villages and local inns for wine tourism – only a two hour drive from Oporto?" - having visited the Douro a number of times I have to say that one of the best things about it is its remoteness. The thought of it ever turning into the Costa Del Sol terrifies me!

I would be interested in your thoughts on this. Do you think it would be good for the Douro to have more large hotels to enable thousands of tourists to base themselves there for days or weeks on end or do you think the current balance of relatively small numbers of quinta guest houses and one or two sizeable hotels is about right?

Derek
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Post by Derek T. »

George,

I am an avid reader of old books about port and wine and often encounter descriptions of the process of adding Jeropiga (or Geropiga) to Port to either correct deficiencies or to achieve the "house style" of blended wines. In his book Wine, the Vine and the Cellar (1863) Thomas George Shaw describes Jeropiga as "syrup made from must prevented from fermenting by means of spirit". I have seen references in other books, some from the first half of the 20th century describing the same substance being used.

Is the use of Jeropiga still permitted and, if so, can you please describe how and when it is used, in what quantity and which styles of Port it is permitted to be used in?

Thanks
Derek

Note for those who have never heard of this: I have never found any reference to Jeropiga being considered an "adulteration", in the way that old books describe Elderberries, excessive spirit and all sort of other abominations, and in the books I have read this substance has always been spoken of in favourable terms.
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Re: George Sandeman - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Symon B »

hi george
my wife and i had a truly great bottle of port but we cant now remember if it was the 1950 ore 1951 sandeman because one was like 98/100 and the other 92/100 can you help as we would like to get some more of it from memory there is not much of it about should have wrote it down ore kept the bottle thankyou symonb
ps have you had from the great year a 1912 sandeman and was it the greatest vintage of the 20thc as it may have been for fonseca [welcome.gif] [bye2.gif] [cheers.gif]
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Roy Hersh
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Re: George Sandeman - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Roy Hersh »

Hi George,


At least for now and the foreseeable "near" future, do you think that the consolidations within the Port trade are done for awhile or are there more on the immediate horizon (no need to name names)?
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Post by George Sandeman »

Ronald,

It comes down to two parallel approaches; one is the need to introduce Port to new consumers and the second is to introduce new ways to drink Port to current Port drinkers.

In the case of the first group new products like “rosé” Port is offered by some companies as an enticement to look at Port as a modern, fashionable drink.
The launch of “pink” Port was an exclusive decision by the IVDP who changed the parameters defined for Ruby Port without passing it through the Inter-professional council.

In the recent review of the designations of Port, “pink” was included and the category Rosé was added to White, Ruby and Tawny.

At Sogrape Vinhos we have launched an Offley Rosé (we are not using the “pink” word, not for trademark reasons, but because we have a lot of experience in the rosé category) and market tested for other brands.

If this category is successful in bringing new people to Port and creating interest in the category it will e great. We will then be able to attract these new consumers with the other type (Reserves and LBVs).

In a different manner, I firmly believe that the increased interest in Douro wines will do the same thing.

For the current Port consumers we are working to expand the occasions that they enjoy Port, in the mid-‘90s we (at Sandeman) started matching Port with food – starting with chocolate – and now some 15 years later it is accepted that Port goes with dessert, and not only; 20 Year old with Foie Gras, White Port with Vanilla Ice Cream, LBV or young Vintage Port (Vau Vintage) with steak....................

So the challenge we have is how we show consumers that Port can fit they day to day style and life.

More recently, about 8 years ago, we started working on Port cocktails, which have a historic base as Port was one of the key ingredients in traditional cocktails (long before vodka became a fashion). Port is a great cocktail ingredient, with high flavour and low alcohol it is the antithesis of vodka and much more pleasant.

Henry Visetelly’s makes a comment in his book at the end of the 19 Century about the flexibility of the Port trade to produce wines which please the changing taste of their drinkers.

Maybe we just need to look at the past to find our future?

All best
George
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Glenn,

After searching through my badly filed files (!) , I finally found the information I was looking for to respond to your question “how many grapes are authorized for Port production”:

Here is the most current information, so current that it is pending publication as law as it was only approved by the Inter-professional Council of the IVDP on the 3rd of February 2010:

Porto
R 67
W 47

Douro
R 68
W 48

Duriense
R 190
W 151

As you can see, beside the varieties approved for Port, there are the total numer of varieties approved for Douro DOP and Duriense IGP.
The varieties approved for Port and Douro are identical except for Pinot Noir (R) which is approved for Douro sparkiling wine, and Alvarinho (W) which is approved for Douro white wines.

All the Port and Douro varieties are included in the numbers for Duriense

Once the regulation is published I will be able to send you the list of varieties in detail,

All best
George
Last edited by George Sandeman on Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by George Sandeman »

Andy

Keep on taking the 20 Year Old!

There is a clear stylistic difference between the Sandeman and Ferreira 20 year Olds – diversity is the spice of life!

Ferriera is not bottling any older wines, but does have some old Coheitas which are released now and then. I am not certain if there are specific plans to increase the availability and it all depends on the evolution of these categories in Portugal (Ferreira’s home market)

The 10 Year Old Whit Port (and 20 year Old) were a long time coming, and there was a lot of resistance from many large companies, but I thinl that there are some lovely examples and the Ferreira 10 Year Old is one of the very best. It is going very well, in the limited release that it is.

I think that the aged white Port has good potential to grow and develop, but at this point a White Vintage Port is not on the cards – the rules clearly state that Vintage Port is red!

All best
George
Last edited by George Sandeman on Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Frederick,

“Completely uprooted” is overstatement. In fact it was a quite large and visible segment above the winery which was being replanted at the time as part of a general upgrading project.

Sogrape Vinhos does this on a regular basis as part of the investment we have in our vineyards, always with a view to future quality.

All best
George
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Derek
Well, I don’t think there is ever any danger of the Douro becoming the Costa del Sol!

It is still an “adventure and discovery” destination.

Although there has been an improvement in the hotel space, and in a more limited sense the restaurant quality, there is still a lot of potential to improve and grow the tourist flow.

For Port and Douro wines there is no doubt that a visit to the Douro has more impact than a picture.......and you know what they say “a picture is worth a thousand words”!

The balance will always be what the market will bear, and it may be tough to keep the luxury hotels, whereas smaller quintas and bed and breakfast may fulfil the need. The key issue is developing activity for people which they are in the Douro; place to visit and things to do.

This has been our contribution with the visitor area at Qta do Seixo, and we hope others will follow.

All best
George
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Post by George Sandeman »

Hi Symon B

I would think it was the Sandeman 1950 which was a great wine, and still showing quite well when I last tasted it (about 5 years ago).

The Sandeman 1912, which I have only tasted on two occasions (in 1990 at the Sandeman Bicentenary tasting held at the Four Seasons in New York, and in 2000 at the IVDP 2000 tasting held at the Palacio da Bolsa in Oporto).

It was considered to be a great Vintage by many, but my “greatest Vintage of the 20th Century” is still the Sandeman 1945!

All best
George
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Roy!

What a question!

First to your comment “Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port” : the wine business, and most definitely the Port business was founded and grew on being profitable. Money has always been the driver.

The reason that the English found wines from Portugal so attractive was because they didn’t pay the same duties as Bordeaux.

In fact when George Sandeman established the company, he had an agreement with Rothschild’s Bank (which was three doors up St Swithin’s Lane) that they would loan him the funds to buy wines in Portugal – based only on his word!

The consolidations that have taken place are a natural evolution of a mature category in a competitive market environment, where synergy and efficiency have to be used to reduce traditional production costs. The investment made by the five leading Port companies will guarantee the future of top quality Port.

However as a category, Port will have to renew and expand its base of drinkers for the FULL portfolio or suffer a dramatic reduction in volume – which will affect the Douro region. Douro wines may take up some of the slack, but realistically the Douro will never achieve production costs similar to the Alentejo for example, much less those of the new world.

This means that Port and Douro wines need to achieve higher market values to be financially sustainable. Building the share of premium qualities (Reserve, Aged Tawnies, LBV, and young drinking Vintage Port) as well as strong Brands will create the value for this region to survive in the longer term.

Consolidations are probable whenever the financial return does not “pay the mortgage”. The increasing cost of farming, production and marketing investment, combined with price pressure from modern trade distribution and unfavourable exchange rates, forces everyone to look at their businesses and evaluate alternatives. Some are diversified, albeit committed to the Douro, such as Sogrape Vinhos, others are financial investors, others are foreign based and yet others are family owned.

The skill will be ensuring that the business model applied is capable of building the quality and image of Port for the future.

All best
George
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Post by Roy Hersh »

As today is Sunday, and I hope people here realize this is their last opportunity to ask you a question, I have one final question myself to follow up on the consolidation theme ...

Given that consolidations do take place in a "survival of the fittest" economic system; during the early 2000's was the proliferation of Douro wine production just part of a natural progression in the Douro, or a brilliant and intentional "poison pill" strategem embraced by some smaller grower-producers who saw this as their best option to remain independent?
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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