GEORGE SANDEMAN - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

Join in on discussions with winemakers and other personalities in the Port, Madeira and Douro Wine trades.

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Derek T.
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Re: George Sandeman - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Derek T. »

Roy Hersh wrote:Has George Sandeman dropped his computer again? [help.gif]
Knowing George's great love of computers I don't think he would drop it accidentally :wink:
Frederick Blais
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Post by Frederick Blais »

Hello George,

What are the plans with the Ferreira and Offley brands? It seems that they are hard to found products out of Portugal or specific markets, is there any reasons for this and any intentions of changing this?

I was told by a producer that it costs about 6 times more to make wine in Douro compared to Bordeaux, is the Port business still viable like it is today ? What can we expect in a near future.
Living the dream and now working for a Port company
Tom D.
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Post by Tom D. »

Hello George.

I am curious about the Offley Boa Vista Vintage Ports. I admit I have never tasted a single one, however I often see them available at prices that seem good values in comparison to their peers. Given my predilection for Vintage Ports with a bit of age on them, I've been tempted to purchase several, but tasting notes are somewhat difficult to find, apart from those in the FTLOP Database. Readily available older vintages appear to be 1962, 1963, 1977, 1983 and 1985.

George, I know your affiliation with Offley has not been a long one, but have you had the opportunity to taste any of these recently, and could you offer any suggestions as to which vintages might be showing best right now, or where these might currently be with respect to their drinkable lifespan? Also, have you been able to taste the Offley's enough to offer any comments on their general style?

Thank you! And thank you for all your comments here.
Tom D.
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Roy,

You are always too kind with your words! Personally, I would rather a couple of glasses of Port (Sandeman, of course) to cure my insomnia than reading comments from George Sandeman!!!

OK – onto you question. I think that people raise their expectation of wines way beyond the normal boundaries of other things. Everyone is looking (today) for great, big, fruity, tasty wines which are approachable, easy to open and drink, no hassle etc.............and yet will age like a great vintage of mythical Bordeaux!

ESTEVA is a high quality entry level Douro wine, representing the updated style of the “new Douro”, it is a great bottle to buy and drink – with the advantage that it will hold up for a couple of years in bottle (although that couple of years maybe 6 or 10), but Luis Sottomayor does not make it to be a “keeper”.....this is a “drinker”, while your “keepers” are getting some bottle age.
Besides Vintage Port, any wine that has 10 or 20 years in bottle is doing pretty well, especially since the “new world” introduced us to all of the delicious characteristics that young wines can have.
For me ESTEVA is released in optimum condition for drinking, and should be drunk within 3 or 4 years of purchase (if you like a little bottle age). Personally, we drink the current vintage at home as our house wine, and it fits the bill!
“Less Terra Firma”....more like a mire!

The “beneficio” no longer exists – although this “popular” and historic term continues to be used.

The “Authorisation for Production of Fortified Must” (APMG) is agreed in the IVDP Inter-professional Council on the basis of annual requirements considering projected market demand and current inventories. It aims to ensure that the grapes dedicated to Port come from the better vineyards, although we all know that historical practices dilute this effect with a wide spread distribution of authorisations. This is gradually improving, but there is a great American expression which sums up the situation: “you can’t fight City Hall”.

You also can´t force every grower to make Port just because he has good grapes.......we do defend that people have the right to do what they like (within zoning regulations!) with the land they own.

This process does not “hinder the growth of Port” which is suffering from loss of the traditional consumer base, lack of brand investment, concentration of quality offerings into a small segment, devaluation of price to protect volume, and lack of strategic focus on building a new consumer base.
You, me and the readers of this Forum love Port, but even if we drink two bottles a day we won’t even account for the “tip” of the 10 million case iceberg that is the Port category. Anyone who knows the Douro knows that it is a region where cultivating vines is the only agricultural possibility (although hemp might be an alternative).

The strategic plan carried out by the IVDP a few years ago, under the auspices of the Interprofessional Council partially addressed this issue but due to lack of consensus died in the “bottom draw”. This consensus, (which first needs to be reached within the Port companies!) needs to be established between the representatives of the Shippers and the producers in the IVDP Inter-professional council, and not shouted from a “soapbox” at Speakers Corner!

Some processes or cultures which were established centuries ago for other reasons may have lost their relevance today, but not their impact. A sudden and dramatic change will not doubt have the effect of any sudden and dramatic change – uncertainty, political panic, chaos, instability, loss of potential quality, and in the short term could be a real “nail in the coffin”.

We need to maintain the stability that will enable the Port sector to ride through the curret times and tribulations, addressing the key issues; how to introduce more people to Port? How to get more people to consider Port as part of their regular drinking repertoire? How can we get the correct value for Port considering the immense cost of production and investment?

The Douro vineyards were demarcated over 250 years ago. It wasn’t planted 25 years ago from scratch.

Muito complicado!

I am off to the gym!
All best
George
Last edited by George Sandeman on Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Herman,
It is a complicated process, mostly because “education” takes a lot of years and is difficult to measure in the short term. This added to the fact that most “consumers” today don’t have time to “learn” and just want to enjoy has pushed the promotional efforts in other directions.
The IVDP has an annual promotion budget of about €2M, the investment plan for which is approves by the Inter-professional Council, and the AEVP has a strategic and marketing committee (GEP) which gives guidance on the IVDP Promotion plan.
To get thes posters done means getting the GEP to agree and request the IVDP to do them!
All best
George
Last edited by George Sandeman on Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Roy Hersh
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Re: George Sandeman - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Roy Hersh »

Have a good time at the gym and we'll see you back here to respond to the other's questions too. Fabulous read and like I said, this is legacy worthy writing and it is very much appreciated. This Guest Corner feature is truly proving its meddle getting some of the people from :ftlop: who can deliver insightful posts whether a rank beginner (and I wish more of the newbies would participate here, having such a great opportunity to ask you any question they want) or those who have invested a great deal of time to become well read and can find intriguing topics to keep you interested on all levels.

I'll respond to your post later today, but want to say I couldn't even swallow a sip of water i'd just taken, before reading your hemp comment. :scholar:

Classic!
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Post by Ronald Wortel »

George,
The part of your post in which you discuss the current state of the port trade is very interesting. There are several attempts from producers to find a way to reach a new group of consumers, whether it is through introducing new categories like 'Pink' or focusing on special categories, such as LBV and Ruby Reserve. You clearly state that a strategy needs to be industry-wide, but I can imagine that you are also thinking of ways to broaden your consumer base within Sogrape. Can we expect a novelty like 'Pink' from one of the Sogrape brands? Or a repositioning of the brands? Or are there other ways in which you plan to attack the future?

Thanks again for your wonderful insights,
Ronald
But enough about me, what do YOU think of me? -- Johnny Bravo
George Sandeman
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Re: George Sandeman - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by George Sandeman »

Dear All,
Sorry about being “offline”, but between the day job, the computer and the stress of answering some of the questions I have been preparing the answers and only now getting back with them.
Like good Port (Sandeman) I hope they were worth waiting for!
George
Ps. Derek.....it was the computer or the wine: do the maths!
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Re: George Sandeman - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Andy!
What a nice mess you are getting me into!
“Strangely, information about this organization is impossible to find.”
This reflects the recent history of the Casa do Douro (or at least over the last 20 years!

1) Can you give our readers a very brief history of the Casa do Douro?

The Casa do Douro was founded by the growers in 1932 as the “Federação dos Viticultores da Região do Douro” with the primary task of organising the vineyard register of the Demarcated region (i.e. the vineyards which can use the geographic indications Port/Douro) – for this it was obligatory for all growers to become members of the CdD and register their vineyards.

Initially growers would register the must they transformed into fortified wine, known commonly as “mosto beneficiado” (benefited must), at the CdD as it was not limited in any way.

This created an arbitrariness which made any type of control impossible, especially considering the complete disconnect between production and the market requirement. So in 1935 rules were established to fix the parameters to distribute the “beneficio” among those growers who requested it, using criteria based on the soil and altitude of the vineyards.

In 1938, the CdD in an attempt to minimise the problem of distributing the “benificio” eliminated vineyards below 70m and above 500m altitude, as well as those with flood soil, agriculture, vines on pergolas and transition soil (granite).

This was later formalised in 1947 by Moreira de Fonseca, who established the classification method used today, using a point system based on 12 quality parameters (location, exposure, soil, climate, and viticulture) which define the vineyard’s potential to produce grapes of suitable quality for Port.

NOTE] : it is important to note that in 1933 the exporters set up the “Grémio dos Exportadores”, today’s AEVP – Association of Porto Wine Companies and the government created the Port Wine Institute

2) What happened to cause the demise of the Casa do Douro?

In 1990, the CdD with a sizeable stock of wine which it had acquired over time through end of harvest “intervention”, and having issued between 70 to 80 THOUSAND PIPES IN EXCESS of the approved (by law) “beneficio” between 1988-90 (three years), opted to buy the Royal Companhia Velha in order to have their own shipping company.

The payment was purportedly in cash and wine and considering that the CdD was part of the Portuguese Ministry of Agriculture, and had control functions, the deal was questioned by the AEVP as being a conflict of interest. Today the CdD still holds shares of the Royal Companhia Velha.

In 1992, the CdD lost the “brandy” monopoly as Portugal entered the EU and monopolies were terminated. Although the CdD was only responsible for handling and delivery of the alcohol used by the producers to make fortified wines, the inflated fee they charged generated a very high cash flow.

It was with this cash flow that the CdD had acted as the market controller by buying all surplus fortified wine stocks at the end of the harvest and ensuring that prices were maintained high. It is this cleaning up of the left-over wines that have created the famed (and exorbitantly priced) CdD stock of old wines.

Having a need for cash to maintain the operation, the CdD approached several banks and took loans using the “treasure” of wines as collateral. The wines were valued speculatively high, and form part of the € 125 Million debt that the CdD has today – of which €80 Million are secured by the Portuguese Government.

In 2003, the IVDP - Instituto dos Vinhos do Douro e Porto was created, as the single inter-professional ruling council which replaced the existing ruling bodies and absorbed their functions (ie IVP, CIRDD and CdD). It is made up of a “public” part (responsible to the Ministry of Agriculture, which certifies and implements the regulations) and a “private” part – which is inter-professional (50% AEVP and 50% Production, part represented by the CdD), and has responsibility for all DOP/IGP wines produced in the demarcated region.

All the remaining controls (and influence) that the CdD had were transferred to the inter-professional IVDP, effectively emptying the CdD of any official functions. Unfortunately as an association, which it maintains mandatory membership of all growers in the Douro (yes, including us!), it has not adapted to being a representative association, and continues to claim a series of functions which it lost due to the changes in law.

3) Without the Casa do Douro what are the repercussions to the smaller farmers/growers?

The lack of ability to adapt itself to a representative association is a problem. The CdD withdrew from the Inter-professional over 24 months ago on the basis that they did not agree with the democratic process, and entered into conflict with the President of the IVDP and the ministry of Agriculture.

This essentially means that the members they are representing (the growers – small and big) have had no word in the law-making for Port or Douro wines, or in the definition of the last two harvests.

This year, the number of farmers who paid their quotas to the CdD – which still has mandatory inscription – was estimated at 250 out of the supposed 40,000 members.

ncluded in those that paid were the Port shippers like Sogrape Vinhos.

This, and the financial debt of the CdD are considered such a grave problem that the Portuguese Government is contemplating legislation to force the farmers to pay their quotas, and evaluating ways of placing the stock of wines of the CdD on the market –either through the shippers or directly (which also requires a change in legislation)

4) Any other information about the Casa do Douro would be greatly appreciated. As this is a subject that I have been very interested in for some time, yet as I mentioned is very hard to find any information about.

All of the services relevant to growing and winemaking in the Douro are the responsibility of the IVDP, but to be a grower in the Douro it is still mandatory to be a member of the Casa do Douro. All the Port shippers who own vineyards are obliged to be members and pay quotas to the Casa do Douro – but have no representative voice in the General Council of the CdD. Beside the Port shippers only a minority of the members pay their quotas.

The CdD has been trying to sell of their stock, but the high price, variable quality and logistical complications make them difficult wines to absorb into well managed stocks. We (Sogrape Vinhos) have not needed to buy from them as we have very good stocks of aging Tawnies.

Hope this helps!
All best
George
PS thanks for the “kind question” - rather information - on the Sandeman Vintage Ports – nice break!
Last edited by George Sandeman on Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Julian,
A couple of corrections (I suspect that you got this list from the 100 years of Vintage Port tasting done by the IVP in 2000)

1945, 1946, 1947, 1948(?), 1950, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1957, 1958, 1959(?), 1960, 1962, 1963, 1965(?), 1966, 1967, 1968(?), 1970, 1972(?), 1974(?), 1975, 1977, 1978(?), 1980, 1982, 1985, 1988(?), 1994, 1997, 1999(?), 2000, 2003 and 2007

To clarify :
1953 : two pipes produced for Carl and George Sandeman and exclusively bottled in London. Both of us are in better condition than the wine
1959: was made by the Oporto general manger but not authorised by Head office, and not registered by the IVDP. The wine is weak
1972: was made by Sandeman, registered and declared, but due to the synthetic alcohol problem it was not shipped. I have a couple of bottles and the wine is reasonably good and has lower radioactivity than normal!
1985: started out quite well, but due to the moving of the bottled stock between warehouses in Oporto, the VA in the wine rose and we held off selling the last 2000 case. What I have had in the market has been good, although once or twice a touch “sharp”
1988 : a small lot was made as Quinta do Vau (Single Quinta), the only one we made. The UK market devalued “single quinta” saying it should be mature when sold and cheaper than regular Vintage (!). The wines from Vau later were used for VAU VINTAGE
1997 : although there was a small lot of classic Vintage registered for this year it was not declared and the major part was made as VAU VINTAGE. I bottled 12 x 3L Vau Vintage 1997 for daughter born in September
1999: all bottled as VAU VINTAGE. I bottled 12 x 3L Vau Vintage 1999 for daughter born in December
Although made and regisitered the following were not considered as declared : 1954, 1962. 1965, 1967, 1978,

In those years there was much more demand (and service and consumption) of Vintage Port and the making of so many Vintages was justified by meeting market needs, some being “drinking” Vintages and some “keeping” Vintages. Also at that time there was no Late Bottled Vintage Port as a substitute to the real thing.
Today the market allows a greater focus on making really classic, historic, “keeping” Vintage Ports and we can all strive to do this, making a VAU VINTAGE for those who enjoy a true Vintage Port instead o LBV.

All best
George
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Derek

If I didn’t know better (!?), I would say that behind the scenes you have all decided to “do me in” an launch the three key questions: “beneficio”, “Casa do Douro” and “level of regulation”!

Over the last two years the regulations have been reviewed and updated, and the new ones are in the process of being published.

The process has been painstaking and has involved many working committees of technically minded people from the various members of the AEVP. Characteristically the Casa do Douro remained absent from the process.

The outcome of the democratic process may not please everyone (it is always the problem with democracy), but there are improvements as well as the inclusion of EU regulations which are sovereign to ours. Normally ours are much tighter than those of the EU.

What we are striving for is a process and regulations that “add-value” for the consumer, and I firmly believe that the Port and Douro regulations do this.
We have an inter-professional council who makes rules that guarantee certain characteristics to consumers – such as geographical origin, definition of typical style, differentiated scale of quality

Addressing you specific questions:

•definition of styles and special categories: this has been reviewed, updated and approved by the Inter-professional council in 2010 and will become law

•approval of Vintage Port : the process is very clear, with the submission of samples for tasting by the IVDP professional panel. The only issu there is here id the slight difference in opinion between the IVDP and the trade as to when the Vintage is “declared”. Personally I defend that the Shipper can declare when he wants, and the IVDP approves the wine (or not) on the established timetable. If by chance the shipper can’t get his Vintage approved after “declaring” it .........egg on face!

•The vineyard grading criteria is clear, albeit dating back to 1947, and can do with “refreshing”. The issue here is getting consensus among the growers (including the Port companies) as to how to proceed.

It is important to remember that the process that we fought for, with parity representation in a democratic forum, gives us more power to define the needs for Port and Douro along with greater responsibility.

We can no longer point away and say “they won’t do it, they won’t let us!”

All best
George
Last edited by George Sandeman on Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Moses
We only really started talking about our Tawnies in the late ‘80s. We had had a run of less good Vintages in the ‘80s and so we started promoting the Sandeman 20 Year Old in San Francisco. Between the quality and the easy to understand proposition (it was 20 years old and yet needed no decanting), it took off. Fortunately, Sandeman had built a stock of Tawnies 50 years earlier and was able to ship to fulfil the growing demand. There is no doubt that the Sandeman 20 Year Old Tawny has become the quality standard of our Ports – until the 2007 Vintage Port!
With the access to high quality fruit from the Cima Corgo vineyards of Sogrape Vinhos, the Sandeman Vintages have come back to the pre-1970 quality, and a potential talking point!

The Sandeman Tawny is an “English” style Gaia aged Tawny, differentiated from the Douro style Tawnies (which are more caramelized and toasted, referred to as “Douro burn”), and the Portuguese Tawnies which have less oxidised fruit.
So the Sandeman Tawny is light coloured, amber with gold highlights, aromas of almonds and honey, and flavours of dried fruits, nuts and honey, with a long clean finish.

In respect of the large sizes, I will research the archives and see which years were offered in Tregnums, but these were all London bottling pre-1974. I recall 1955, 1945 and 1935 in Tregnum.

The Don has been used since 1930, and on the labels since 1932. I think that the caped and hated figure has not be as evident because we don’t have the level of commercial communication that we used to have.

All best,
George
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Glenn,
The regulations on grape varieties have just been reviewed and updated.
I will take a look at them and come back to you.
All best,
George
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Sean,

From the photo this looks like a London Bottling of 1945. I opened a bottle that was down to upper shoulder and although the wine was more advanced than previous bottles I had had, the wine was fabulous.

It always amazes me how resilient Vintage Port is!

I am fan of the 1966, and like it better than the 1963, but I have never consciously compared it to the 1970 – must do this sometime soon!

All best
George
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear John M

There are few people who make crusted Port and considering the number of good Vintage Ports that are available .....and the great prices at which you can aquire them.......I am not clear where the market for these wines is.
Maybe being a blend of more than one year creates some flexibility in making the wine, but honestly we don’t make them so I am not very up on them.
Anyway if you enjoy them and find them at a good price, power to you! Keep it up!

All best
George
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Andy
As promised here is some information on the 1958 harvest

1958 Harvest Report
The first half of March was dry and sunny, but was then followed by gales and rain. April was cold; and then the weather was fairly standard for that time of year, until June - hot and with the highest rainfall experienced since 1896 (an outstanding year for Port).

July was sunny and fine. The first half of August was fine and hot but the second half was cold and rainy. Then an unsettled patch at the beginning of September was followed by hot weather.

All best
George

If you follow this link on the Sandeman website you can read reviews of an extensive number of Sandeman Vintage Ports, done and edited by a friend, a true gentlemen of the gavel, who remains anonymous:
http://www.sandeman.eu/wines/rarities/en/
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Derek T.
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Re: George Sandeman - April's Forum Guest Corner Host

Post by Derek T. »

George Sandeman wrote:Dear Derek
If I didn’t know better (!?), I would say that behind the scenes you have all decided to “do me in” an launch the three key questions: “beneficio”, “Casa do Douro” and “level of regulation”!
I can't believe you think we would do such a thing! :snooty: - well, maybe just a little :wink: [bye2.gif]

Alex Bridgeman is currently out of reach of a computer but has asked me to ask this question on his behalf:

Why don't we see Sogrape wines in the UK these days, despite the fact we are great fans of Ferreira, Sandeman and Offley?
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Frederick,

Both Ferreira and Offley are historic companies and curiously associated with Sandeman history.

George Sandeman (the Founder) was a very good friend of James Forrester (uncle of Joseph James) and started out by representing his wines in the North of England and boarder lands of Scotland until stabling this company in 1790.

It was a significant purchase of wine from the Ferreira family during the Absolutist – Liberalist war (1828-1834) when foreign merchants could not leave the confines of Oporto.

More recently, until 1980, Sandeman was part owner of the Offley Forrester Company.
It is great the the three houses are linked again within a family owned company like Sogrape Vinhos.

It is difficult to create international markets for all of the Port brands, so we have a focus o making sure that Sandeman is worldwide, and shipping Ferreira and Offley to the markets where they are established – such as Canada.

It is tru that the cost of farming is significantly higher in the Douro than in Bordeaux – and one only has to compare the terroir to see this. The Port has other cost not found in Bordeaux or other wine regions, such as the minimum aging stock requirement in Port.

With all of this, and the general pressure on prices, the viability of the business is threatened but, as people say, Port has survived war, plague and famine and pulled through.........

All best
George
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Tom D

I am familiar with the Offley Boa Vista Vintages, albeit have not tasted through them recently. The 1962, 1963, 1977 where made when Offley and Sandeman were associated and working together, the 1985 and 1987 were both made by good winemakers.

I have them as good solid Vintage Ports, based on grapes coming from the Quinta de Boa Vista in the Cima Corgo (which is still a Sogrape Vinhos property and providing grape for the recent Vintages – especially good in 2007)

If you are going for one or the other I would suggest the ’63, the ’77, and for a younger wine the ’85. However a lot has to do where and how they have been stored.

Sorry not to be more help!
All best
George
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Post by George Sandeman »

Dear Derek (and Alex by proxy)

I just hope nobody reads the things that I have written!

Alex:

Why don't we see Sogrape wines in the UK these days, despite the fact we are great fans of Ferreira, Sandeman and Offley?

The UK is a tough tough tough market and always has been, Sogrape Vinhos has wines there (Duke de Viseu, Pena de Pato, Qta de Azevedo and Callabriga) as well as Sandeman, but getting dsitibution is a cutthroat business and we are working on it.

Our importer is Stevens Garnier and they are located in Oxford, they would be able to help you!

All best
George
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