Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

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Peter Reutter
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Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Peter Reutter »

I own a few bottles from the Kassab collection, but even after investing half a day for internet research I could not find one single TN on a Kassab bottle. Has anyone ever opened a bottle with a Kassab seal (BAK)? Or heard of someone who...
These bottles are quite old, came in not so small numbers and have been around for some time now. I think it is strange that there are no tasting notes to be found anywhere.
Any help out there? Anybody who owns one of these and can tell a story about them?
Thanks for your help
Peter
Alan Gardner
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Alan Gardner »

Reviving this as I have been offered a couple of Kassab bottles (at high prices relative to non-Kassab bottles of the same era).

Certainly the 'storage' seems good, but I'm similarly confused/concerned as to whether these were solid wines originally - storage is irrelevant if they weren't good in the first place.
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Peter Reutter
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Peter Reutter »

Dear Alan, unfortunately my knowledge about any tasting notes of Kassab madeira wine remains the same after all these years: Zero. Obviously nobody ever opened one of these old treasures... Out of curiosity I searched again for a couple hours about any TNs, but there was nothing to be found, sorry.
Best regards
Peter
*Wine makes poets of us all!* Hamilton in Silas Weir Mitchell's A Madeira Party.
Alan Gardner
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Alan Gardner »

Thanks, Peter.
I'll probably buy one just to try it.
However, I find it particularly strange that Broadbent doesn't seem to have notes in his book(s) - yet the collection was sold under his tenure as Head Of Wine at Christie's. I didn't start buying until after the Kassab collection sale, so don't know if there were notes in the original sale catalogue.

Anybody else out there with any knowledge?
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Peter Reutter
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Peter Reutter »

Dear Allan,

Having a day off I stopped looking in the internet and took to the "old-style" way of doing things, spending the afternoon with my Madeira library. Well, what can I say, I should have done that in the first place [dash1.gif]

I finally found a TN in one of the Madeira books i own, in Richard Mayson's "Madeira" to be exact, on page 190. He opened a bottle of BAK 1820 Verdelho in 2015 and gave it ****/***** (out of five) and called it "a fascinating old wine".

Then there are two TNs in Alex Liddell's "Madeira" referring to the 1715 JCA Terrantez (no score, since Alex was not sure about the authenticity of the wine) and a 1808 Sercial that scored **** (out of five) and was identical to a bottle he saw at Christie's in 1986 that bore a typical Kassab seal.

So that is not much, but at least the TNs would suggest, that some Kassab wines had decent quality. Please keep us updated if you should ever open a BAK bottle.

Best
Peter
*Wine makes poets of us all!* Hamilton in Silas Weir Mitchell's A Madeira Party.
Alan Gardner
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Alan Gardner »

Hi Peter,
Great minds think alike - I also went back to my book sources and found the Liddell notes.
But I was searching for the specific bottle I was offered, so missed the Mayson reference.

[Sorry to be vague, but I want the wine safely in my hands before I reveal the actual wine; I only have a photograph (I mean digital image) so far].

BUT, another member of my madeira tasting group here has a bottle of the same vintage and producer, but without the Kassab seal - so there's now a distinct possibility of a direct comparison of the 'with' and 'without' seal.
But first let's get the bottle safely in my hands.
Justin A
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Justin A »

Interesting topic- I dont think any generalization about the overall quality of Kassab wines can be made. I think most of the wines that have appeared with his stamp have been island bottlings without attribution to a specific producer, perhaps with the exception of JCA. Although I think I own some, I wouldnt pay a premium for bottles from his collection although I may be in the minority.
Alan Gardner
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Alan Gardner »

Hi Justin,
The vendor is asking around a 35% premium for the Kassab wines. The 'explanation' for this is that the core of the collection actually came from the Reid hotel cellar (this would be about 80 years ago) and so they were 'assumed' to have been of excellent quality, plus were stored in good conditions until the Kassab acquisition (and presumably also stored well once Kassab acquired them).

Accordingly, for 'maybe 80-100 years' (i.e the entire 1900's until sale at Christie's) they were in 'excellent storage'. Of course that says nothing about the 'original' quality of the collection. But it does 'imply' a level of provenance greater than alternative sources.

But is that worth 35%??????
Justin A
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Justin A »

Alan,
Most likely a true story, as I believe I read somewhere that Reids wound up with some of the wines due to some unpaid debt of some sort, or maybe I have that in reverse. Regarding the "storage in good conditions" you mention, we all know that storage temperatures of bottled wine do not really impact these wines. Perhaps you meant that from an authentication point of view? Not sure what you mean by greater provenance?
If something can be said about the Kassab collection, it is that the bottles that still bear his initials in old wax are most likely from his collection and thus bottled at a time when the type of modern day fakes we are seeing were less prevalent. I really dont think it is accurate to presume anything about the quality of the wines in his collection. Whether or not a premium is appropriate for his initials being on the bottle is up to the people involved in the transaction.
Also, something to consider is if you're planning on holding on to the bottles for a while, sometime in the not so distant future they will require recorking, which will all but erase the evidence of provenance you are paying a premium for.
Alan Gardner
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Alan Gardner »

Agree entirely - except that resale isn't an issue for us.
We have two madeira groups here, in Toronto, with a total of almost 40 madeira enthusiasts.

We 'never' sell (so far) - we consume!
Demand exceeds supply - our issue is sourcing.
One of our group has just inspected the bottles and considers them authentic.
But we still haven't sampled the contents (although we have two group tastings scheduled later this year).

We've passed on several potential bids recently as we had suspicions on provenance and hence possibility of fakes.
Justin A
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Justin A »

Either way, Im excited to see what you bough and hear about it!
Mark L
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Mark L »

I suppose another tiny factor, given these days a slight penchant for swindlers to make/sell fake wines, is that the BAK seal itself is rather hard to take off, then replace convincingly...? In which case, one could argue that the contents of a BAK sealed bottle are more likely to be authentic than one without the seal or one that has been recorked recently. (for the record, I really dislike speaking in terms of authenticity as I would love to believe we lived in a world where fakes did not appear; but then again, it does add a bit of drama -- and isn't part of the enjoyment of opening bottles like these the story behind and surrounding the bottles, their origin and their lore? [cheers.gif] ) It is, for me, at least.

Can't wait to hear all about it, Alan! Enjoy!
Cheers,
Mark
Michael R
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Michael R »

It is bit of a late entry for this thread, but I am pretty certain that, unfortunately, there are recently manufactured fake bottles with BAK seal in circulation. They seem to be produced somewhere in EU along with a fairly large number of other fake madeiras and ports.
Alan Gardner
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Re: Bottles from the Kassab Collection > TNs?

Post by Alan Gardner »

Hi Michael,
Certainly I'm aware of possible fakes - but not (so far) among the Kassab wines.
I've sent a 'Personal Message' following up (rather than speculate in a public forum).

Alan
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