Payback - Premier Cru

[Roy Hersh]

http://www.wine-searcher.com/magazine-a ... fraud-case

[Edward J]

I'm glad I was able to avoid that mess as they had a few "arriving soon" ports that I was interested in. However sorry for those whose wine was in stock, paid for and not shipped, looks like you are out of luck.

On August 30, a bankruptcy judge is expected to approve the bulk sale of 75,000 bottles of wine in the Premier Cru warehouse. Most of those wines had already been paid for by customers, the former employee said. But with the business seized, they are simply assets in the bankruptcy case.

[Eric Menchen]

I read that Spectrum was the leading bidder. I might get a chance to buy my wine twice.

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[Moses Botbol]

Even a minimum security Federal prison is no joke. There's plenty of violence at a "Camp Fed". I hope those who were conned get some restitution.

[Andy Velebil]

I read that Spectrum was the leading bidder. I might get a chance to buy my wine twice.

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True. The hearing date is 08-30-16. If no one out bids them by then they should be the owner of 78,792 bottles of wine. There are 5,007 unfettered and 73,785 of the primary wine bottles. Unfettered being there are no purchase orders for them. In other words what PC owned and had not sold yet. That's a lot of bottles left where they could account for what people paid for but had not shipped yet. Yikes!

[Bradley Bogdan]

Anyone want to go halvsies on outbidding Spectrum? I bet there's some Port mixed in there...


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[Eric Menchen]

I know there is some Port in there :-(

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[Roy Hersh]

More ...


http://www.wine-searcher.com/m/2016/08/ ... nzi-scheme

[Glenn E.]

I was lucky enough to get everything that I ordered from them, but only because I've only ever purchased futures once and the experience was so bad that I vowed never again. (A 2005 Pavie from TCWC.)

When we ordered all that Krohn that they were sharply discounting to raise cash, it was done with foresight and we mostly demanded that it be shipped immediately. I got a little over 3 cases and they were delivered about a month before the company seized up for good. I was watching it closely, though, and was prepared to contest the charge through AmEx at any time. But it shipped when they said it would ship, so it worked out fine for me. It was a little tense until the boxes actually showed up, though!

[Andy Velebil]

Well Glenn don't hold your breath too long. Bankruptcy claw back can still come after you for the value.

I stopped buying anything not in stock many many years ago. Was never comfortable with how long it took to get things. But in stock, I've bought a lot over the years and shipped right away.


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[Moses Botbol]

I stopped buying anything not in stock many many years ago. Was never comfortable with how long it took to get things.

Same here. Between the wait and me forgetting that I ordered it just does not seem worth it.

[Glenn E.]

Well Glenn don't hold your breath too long. Bankruptcy claw back can still come after you for the value.

Don't think so. Clawback typically only applies to payments in cash or cash equivalents. Delivery of paid-for goods doesn't seem to apply. But I'll keep an eye on it.

Perhaps more to the point, these goods were fully paid for (and thus no longer an asset of Premier Cru) prior to 90 days out from declaration, which is the limit for non-preferential clawback.

[Andy Velebil]

Glenn you are wrong as its been hashed out on another wine site by bankruptcy lawyers. They still can come after for clawback. Though so far it appears they probably won't. Keep your fingers crossed.


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[Glenn E.]

Though so far it appears they probably won't.

Probably because they'd have to sue each individual separately, and at least in my case they'd be pulling AmEx into the fight by doing so. Can't see how that'd work out as a net gain for them.

[Andy Velebil]

Though so far it appears they probably won't.

Probably because they'd have to sue each individual separately, and at least in my case they'd be pulling AmEx into the fight by doing so. Can't see how that'd work out as a net gain for them.

From my understanding the amount doesn't matter in past BK clawback cases. The attorney's are getting paid regardless. That said, if it's less than 4 figures the likelihood is probably pretty small give how many PC customers bought stuff and got it in the 6-8 months leading up to the BK filing.

[Glenn E.]

That said, if it's less than 4 figures the likelihood is probably pretty small give how many PC customers bought stuff and got it in the 6-8 months leading up to the BK filing.

The legal limit is 90 days for non-preferential payments. Preferential payments are those to personal friends, family, business partners, etc.

My point about the cost to them of suing is that while yes, the lawyers are getting paid either way, if the amount they have to spend in order to claw back the value of my Port is more than the value of my Port then it isn't ethical for them to pursue it. Doing so could get the lawyers disbarred. And if AmEx is involved, which they will be, I can pretty much guarantee that they'll lose money on the attempt.

[Andy Velebil]

That said, if it's less than 4 figures the likelihood is probably pretty small give how many PC customers bought stuff and got it in the 6-8 months leading up to the BK filing.

The legal limit is 90 days for non-preferential payments. Preferential payments are those to personal friends, family, business partners, etc.

My point about the cost to them of suing is that while yes, the lawyers are getting paid either way, if the amount they have to spend in order to claw back the value of my Port is more than the value of my Port then it isn't ethical for them to pursue it. Doing so could get the lawyers disbarred. And if AmEx is involved, which they will be, I can pretty much guarantee that they'll lose money on the attempt.

I can point you to the thread where it was hashed out in pretty good detail by BK attorneys on the wine board. The thread is long, so crack a couple bottles you'll need it, LOL. It is quite complicated and the 90 day is mostly true but not always from my reading of the BK lawyers posts. At what price you bought (below normal retail/wholesale) also can come into play. If you are under about $6,200 in purchases or converted store credit then you should be fine, it sometimes doubles if you are in a different venue than the BK filing. Using converted store credit is generally a bigger red flag for clawback than straight out purchases. But again, that info is pretty general as BK and clawback is very complicated based on many factors around each individual case.

Ethics has nothing to do with lawyers, LOL.

http://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/vie ... =1&t=61257

[Glenn E.]

I'm less than half that. Don't recall the exact total off the top of my head, but it was less than $3000. And mine were straight purchases, not conversions.

We may joke about lawyers and ethics, but it does matter to them very much. Being disbarred for an ethics violation is a career-ending move.

[Andy Velebil]

I'm less than half that. Don't recall the exact total off the top of my head, but it was less than $3000. And mine were straight purchases, not conversions.

We may joke about lawyers and ethics, but it does matter to them very much. Being disbarred for an ethics violation is a career-ending move.

Do you know how hard it is to get disbarred? I know first hand of a case of an attorney caught practicing law with a suspended license and some other felony related things. Been almost a year, still they haven't yanked his license permanently. At least for CAL-BAR, it's a long drawn out process they don't like to go down. Kinda like doctors, thye give them all kinds of chances to screw up big time before they yank their license for good. WAY to lenient IMO.

[Lindsay E.]

If Fox and PC are Bankrupt, where did the $45 million go? Off-shore accounts? I could probably stand 6 years of minimum security resort prison in exchange for $45 million. Doesn't sound like much of a punishment to me when compared to the crime. Andy, you're only a 6 hr drive from the Bay Area, couldn't you have planted some Kiddy porn in this guy's house? The rumor is that kiddy porn/rapists get turned into somebody's bit%& when they get to the "Big House"

I know I've said this before, but Dante put fraud a whole rung lower than murder in his explanation of hell. I wish modern society viewed fraud as severely as Dante.