Establishing my port collection.

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Al B.
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Al B. »

Thomas V wrote:Your comments about the 1980's are spot on and I share your point of view. I am focussing on building out my collection with bottles from 80, 83 and 85.

Currently I have these

1983 Grahams (2)
1983 Ramos Pinto
1985 Smith Woodhouse (2)
1985 Ferreira

But I want to expand with

1980 Ferreira
1983 Dow's
1983 Gould Campbell (These are hard to find)
1985 Gould Campbell
1985 Warre's (I have tasted this and quite liked it)
1985 Dow's
1985 Fonseca
1985 Grahams (Had 1 that was faulty. Need to give this another shot)
I like the wines from '83 and '85. There are some really good value for money ports from these vintages with great quality at reasonable prices - Smith Woodhouse and Gould Campbell being two of them and I would add Offley 1983 and Martinez 1985 to the buy list. Not easy to find but usually quite cheap when you do.
Thomas V wrote:I like your pointers on the LBV where I really would like to get some Warre, SWC or Crasto. What SQ could you recommend from the eighties?
I would also highly recommend recent LBVs from Quevedo, Noval, Niepoort, Sandeman, Offley and Ferreira. All are very serious ports which represent stunning value for money with virtually no drop in quality from the full vintage port. For SQ from the 1980s I would start with 1987 (Fonseca Guimaraens, Vargellas, Roeda and Tua especially), 1986 (Fonseca Guimaraens, Malvedos, Terra Feita, Vargellas) and 1988 (Fonseca Guimaraens, Quinta da Madalena). The Sandeman 1982 is not SQ (nor is the FG) but it is rather a nice wine in an elegant style.
Thomas V wrote:The stars of the 1994 vintage are really expensive, but it will only get worse. But I need to include the into my collection at some point. Where sooner rather than later will be the least expensive. I have tasted the Grahams (Was really bad, we even opened a second bottle) and the Vesuvio. The Vesuvio was stellar and the best port I have ever tasted 95+ points. I have also taken a liken to the 1997 vintage. I find they peculiar and interesting had the Graham's and Dow's.
I can't argue with the logic, but I might gently question whether you really do need to have the best of the 1994s in your collection. While they are stunningly good, so are quite a few of the lesser known names. Warre 1994, for example, is a beautiful port but sells at a substantial discount to Graham, Taylor, Dow or Vesuvio.
Thomas V wrote:Regarding my tasting preference I am kinda of a limbo at the moment. I really enjoy the 2011 I have tasted, as well at the Vesuvio 2013. I am also really into the 1994 Vesuvio I have had as well as Smith Woodhouse and Warre's 1985. I also was huge on the 2003 and 1997 Graham's. The oldest vintages I have had were a 1970 and a 1977 Graham's. I liked the1970 but I wasn't blown away and some of the others youngsters in my Port Club have been teasing me that I haven't yet learnt to appreciate older vintage ports. I don't think that is the case. I have had plenty developed vintages like the 1985 Warre's & Dow's that I have thoroughly enjoyed. But the circumstances for the Graham tasting was also sub par. The wines were not decanted ahead of time so it was basically a pop n pour when we arrived. So they had gotten like 2 hours of air time when we drank them. Not optimal.
Interesting. It could be that your preferred maturity point is around 30-40 years, in which case your plan to build up a cellar from the 1980s and 1990s supported by more recent wines is a very sound one. Have you worked out yet how many bottles you will need once you reach your optimal cellar size? For example, if you drink one bottle per month and you like to drink 30-40 year old port you will need 12 x 35 = 420 bottles in your cellar and to buy an average of 12 new bottles every year (which could be 36 bottles when there is a declaration). But don't panic - you have 35 years to buy all these! If you buy more than one bottle per month, on average, you are increasing the size of your cellar. And then, of course, you have to figure out where to store all the bottles...
Thomas V wrote:I love Vesuvio. It is my favourit quinta and producer of vintage port. I just immensely enjoy their style and elegance. Thank you for you personal rankings and recommendations.

On my Vesuvio buy list I now have. Let me know if you are going to do a full vertical some time. I would travel to the UK or Porto for that.
I too love Vesuvio's ports. I find they have a wonderful combination of power and finesse. I have no idea though if I would ever be able to spot a Vesuvio port blind!
Thomas V wrote:P.s. General question. Might seem silly. Is Offley Boa Vista a SQ vintage? I don't know why. I just always thought of it as the name of the company, but I realised that is just Offley right?
For many years, most of the grapes which were used to produce Offley ports came from Quinta da Boa Vista so in some years the ports would have qualified to be called a single quinta port if desired. However, the name of the port is "Offley Boa Vista" which is carefully crafted not to represent that this is SQ and therefore allowed Offley to buy in grapes from outside the Quinta. These days the Offley brand is owned by Sogrape and the Quinta by a separate company. I would guess that the Boa Vista branding will be quietly dropped and future ports will be "Offley".
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Thomas V »

Hi Al,

Thanks. I think the selection from the 83' and 85' vintages are pretty sound. Both the ones I already own and the ones on my wish list. I am thinking about trying out the 1985 Ferreira as a prelude to my best friend and I going to Porto & the Douro in the autumn. I think it is going to be smashing.

I have not yet stumbled upon any of those LBVs you mentioned nor SQ at a fair price. At Garrafeira they are more expensive than real vintages (Duh). Ill keep my eyes open in the future. A sound point about the SQ and older LBVs being great at a very affordable price. Especially if you bought them young (But that is case for all ruby port).

Again a good point about 1994 being such a good year that even the Tier2 and Tier3 houses made stellar wines that year. Warre's happen to be one of my darlings so I would have no issue buying that nor Croft, Ferreira, Cockburn etc. But I must include a case of Vesuvio, I just must. Cannot question that. It will be worth it!! (Might make it 2).

Regarding the size of the cellar and how much vintage / single quinta / LBV I will drink per year. I haven't made a concious decision about that yet. I will in due time right now I am just enjoying the process and the learnings. I currently have bought 24 vintage / SQ this year. Yikes and only half the year has passed. So I think I am ahead of the curve. Time to save up to buy 2015 vintage en primeur when it hits the market in 2017... Also I need to get more experience drinking vintage, SQ and LBV from different houses, vintages and maturity points. Then I will be able to make a more informed decision about what my preference is (Though that could change over time). I also do enjoy TWAIOA and Colheitas, but that I can just buy on the fly.

Thanks for the details about Boa Vista.

P.s as a part of an order I made for my club's next tasting I've added 2 x 2004 Quinta dos Malvedos and 1x 2004 Quinta do Bomfin for myself. Was a very fair price at 25 euros per bottle.
Last edited by Thomas V on Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Moses Botbol
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Moses Botbol »

Thomas V wrote:Also I need to get more experience drinking vintage, SQ and LBV from different houses, vintages and maturity points. Then I will be able to make a more informed decision about what my preference is (Though that could change over time). I also do enjoy TWAIOA and Colheitas, but that I can just buy on the fly.
Oddly enough, I was drinking a few vintages that I swore I never had before with friend. He keeps good notes on each port we drink along with our scores. A decade later, I gave that port "I never had" the same score as back then [kez_11.gif]

If you buy solid ports and vintages to start with, I doubt you'll not like them down the road. For the same money, I would take solid '80-85 vintages over '94, but you do need some '94 vintage for sure. Only the Dow has been the '94 vintage that I enjoyed in its current state. The others have been way too young for me.

I think I have a respectable amount of vintage port, but I drink tawny & colheita to vintage at 10 to 1 or more... Vintage for me is more of an event with guests. Only problem is no one comes by... :lol:
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Edward J
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Edward J »

I've left all my 1994's alone except the Quinta Do Crasto, which has entered it's drinking window. I have collected around 10 cases of Vintage Port, which could be 6 bottles a year for twenty years. I have a few that I'm looking out for, and of course love to find the "odd balls" like the 1966 Rocha Ridge bottling. However we could get by if need be. On the other hand, we have found that we drink LBV perhaps 4:1? and then Tawny/Colheita at another 4:1. I know that the ratio for Tawny/Colheita is rising for a few reasons. 10 yo provide a decent wine for a price comparable to a LBV. 20yo can rival some VP's and single Quintas. The Colheitas and 30yo+ can star in any celebration, with far less fear of a poor showing by an expensive bottle. It's also much more likely to be as good or better the next day, or two. Given between distribution, availability and pricing, it makes sense to stock up when possible.
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Thomas V »

Moses Botbol wrote:
Thomas V wrote:Also I need to get more experience drinking vintage, SQ and LBV from different houses, vintages and maturity points. Then I will be able to make a more informed decision about what my preference is (Though that could change over time). I also do enjoy TWAIOA and Colheitas, but that I can just buy on the fly.
Oddly enough, I was drinking a few vintages that I swore I never had before with friend. He keeps good notes on each port we drink along with our scores. A decade later, I gave that port "I never had" the same score as back then [kez_11.gif]

If you buy solid ports and vintages to start with, I doubt you'll not like them down the road. For the same money, I would take solid '80-85 vintages over '94, but you do need some '94 vintage for sure. Only the Dow has been the '94 vintage that I enjoyed in its current state. The others have been way too young for me.

I think I have a respectable amount of vintage port, but I drink tawny & colheita to vintage at 10 to 1 or more... Vintage for me is more of an event with guests. Only problem is no one comes by... :lol:
The 1994 Vesuvio is drinking well now, but I think it will only get better over the next 30 or so years. The Graham's I have had are in a difficult phase at the moment. 2 bottles from different vendors the same night showed very very poorly (83/84 pts).

Regarding drinking companions. I was in the same position as you. I love port, but not many I knew were into it. So I did what was necessary and founded my own club. Within 6 months we have 30 members (CAP) and have held 3 tastings with 2 scheduled for the autumn. Now it seems like a lot of people I know are suddenly starting to get into port. The want to join the tastings. They ask if I have some port open when they are visiting. The ask if I can help them get some of that bottle they tried and liked at my house. The are thinking about making Porto their next travel destination.

Be cause of the port club I myself have founded in Aarhus, I get to taste a lot of different vintage port. I think the current ratio for me is along the lines of 5:1 (Vintage vs. TWAIOA/Colheita). I have noticed though , that my friends that I server port, that are novices, tend to prefer the aged tawnies and colheitas. At least initially. Though I have not served them something like a 1985 Ferreira.
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Thomas V »

So I am starting to get more into the SQ's and it also happens to be the next theme in my club and I need to start making plans. My first agenda was to establish which SQ ports exits and this is my current list. So the question is, am I missing any relevant SQ ports?

Second question, if we were going to taste bottles between 1990 and 2010 which would you suggest and what format in the tasting? (They need to be reasonably priced for the entry fee to be fair for the club members, so max 70 USD per bottle).
  • Quinta do Vesuvio
    Quinta do Noval
    Quinta do Bomfim (Dow)
    Quinta da Senhora da Ribeira (Dow)
    Quinta dos Malvedos (Graham)
    Quinta da Cavadinha (Warre)
    Quinta de Vargellas (Tayor)
    Quinta de Vargellas Vinha Velha (Taylor)
    Quinta de Teira Feita (Taylor)
    Quinta da Roeda (Croft)
    Quinta do Bom Retiro (Ramos Pinto)
    Quinta de Ervamoira (Ramos Pinto)
    Quinta da Corte (Deleforce)
    Quinta Vale d'Agodinho (Quevedo)
    Quinta do Panascal (Fonseca)
    Quinta Nova (Burmester)
    Quinta do retiro Novo (Krohn)
Eric Menchen
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Eric Menchen »

While I love Vesuvio and Noval and they qualify as single quinta, I tend to think of them differently than the others on your list. These two largely exist as only single quinta wines. Noval makes a few wines with just "Noval" on the label, but their VP as far as I can recall is only SQ. Vesuvio also makes a non-Port wine, but even that is SQ (at least the year that I have). The rest of your list consists of wines where the producer has a primary label VP, and then sometimes sells a SQVP. For your tasting, it might be better to just focus on this latter category. It would be more indicative of whether SQVP wines are something worth drinking, and it would help your budget as well as these can often be found much cheaper than the primary labels.
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Thomas V »

Perfectly true Eric.

Vesuvio and Noval are something different entirely.

Any suggestion from recent "true" SQ that you have had that should make the short list?


Another matter. I have received a stock list from Roeda and Panascal regarding which wines you can purchase at their visitor centres. Anything that stands out as a good bargain to you?

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Eric Menchen
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Eric Menchen »

Those are painful prices on both sides, but really painful on the Fonseca side. The only thing that intrigues me is the Fonseca Crusted 2008 Bicentenary Edition, because I've not seen that around.

Let's take 2000 Fonseca. It looks like every one of the 50 listings that show up on the free version of wine-searcher.com are lower, with options in five or six different countries. I bet the pro version could find something closer to you. And if not, can you source from the UK for delivery before they leave the EU? :wink:
Monique Heinemans.
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Monique Heinemans. »

Hi Thomas,
As Eric mentioned, these prices are ridiculous, even for the European mainland.
In the Netherlands you can buy the Fonseca 2000, 2003, 2007 and 2009 VP f.i. at Ton Overmars (Amsterdam) between ca. €80 and €90.
The Croft Roeda 2004/2005/2008 VP at Sauter for about €30-€35.
Both are very reliable wineshops with climatized cellars. So maybe this could be an option for you?
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Thomas V »

Eric Menchen wrote:Those are painful prices on both sides, but really painful on the Fonseca side. The only thing that intrigues me is the Fonseca Crusted 2008 Bicentenary Edition, because I've not seen that around.

Let's take 2000 Fonseca. It looks like every one of the 50 listings that show up on the free version of wine-searcher.com are lower, with options in five or six different countries. I bet the pro version could find something closer to you. And if not, can you source from the UK for delivery before they leave the EU? :wink:
Yes the Fonseca vintages are pretty insane, however the Guimaraens and Panascal seems reasonably priced when comparing on wine-searcher (free version).

I am especially eye balling the Panascal 2008 and 2004 which I could make use of for my next club tasting. Also the 2013 Guimaraens got a pretty good review by Roy in the latest newsletter. Though I probably could direct my port buying funds elsewhere for a better deal.
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Eric Menchen »

Perhaps I am slightly spoiled as I try to find those recent release Fonseca non-VPs for around US$ 30, certainly less than $50. And checking now, I see there is a shop in NYC that has it for $25.99. The average on wine-searcher is $56. I let my pro subscription lapse several years ago, but I'd like to think there is a better source for you.
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Thomas V »

Monique Heinemans. wrote:Hi Thomas,
As Eric mentioned, these prices are ridiculous, even for the European mainland.
In the Netherlands you can buy the Fonseca 2000, 2003, 2007 and 2009 VP f.i. at Ton Overmars (Amsterdam) between ca. €80 and €90.
The Croft Roeda 2004/2005/2008 VP at Sauter for about €30-€35.
Both are very reliable wineshops with climatized cellars. So maybe this could be an option for you?
Hi Monique. Thanks for the hints, I will take a look at it. Cause currently I have no Fonseca in my cellar and that needs to change.
Eric Menchen wrote:Perhaps I am slightly spoiled as I try to find those recent release Fonseca non-VPs for around US$ 30, certainly less than $50. And checking now, I see there is a shop in NYC that has it for $25.99. The average on wine-searcher is $56. I let my pro subscription lapse several years ago, but I'd like to think there is a better source for you.
Perhaps you are... I think I will invest in a W.S Pro since I use it quite a lot for the club tastings as well.


On another note. We are having friends over this Saturday and my plan was to serve them a 85 Ferreira. When I pulled out the bottle from the case there was some mould on the bottle neck. Should I be worried? After cleaning it out it seems good as the mould/fungus was mainly on the selo where some port had leak on to it. After removing the selo the capsule looks clean and undamaged. (In any case I will have a back up bottle ready)

Image

After wiping it down
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Al B.
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Al B. »

Thomas V wrote:On another note. We are having friends over this Saturday and my plan was to serve them a 85 Ferreira. When I pulled out the bottle from the case there was some mould on the bottle neck. Should I be worried? After cleaning it out it seems good as the mould/fungus was mainly on the selo where some port had leak on to it. After removing the selo the capsule looks clean and undamaged. (In any case I will have a back up bottle ready)
I never worry about cellar mould. If you go to some of the old cellars in Oporto you can see bottles covered in cellar mould - have a look through some of the pictures in the photo library at the Niepoort, Cockburn or Vilar d'Allen cellars.

If you have a problem with the wine, I wouldn't expect this to be directly connected with the mould but always good to have a spare bottle just in case of problems.
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Thomas V »

Hi Al,

I wasn't too worried. As I, like you mention, recall pictures of mouldy wine cellars in Burgundy and Gaia. But thanks for confirming my thoughts.

I will stand it up today and decant it tomorrow for around 6 hours I think. The last 4 members to have rated it has given it 94 (John), 90(Andy), 94(Bradley) and 93(Eric), so high expectations [beg.gif]

Fingers crossed that the Ferreira will show well tomorrow.
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Andy Velebil
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Andy Velebil »

Thomas V wrote:Hi Al,

I wasn't too worried. As I, like you mention, recall pictures of mouldy wine cellars in Burgundy and Gaia. But thanks for confirming my thoughts.

I will stand it up today and decant it tomorrow for around 6 hours I think. The last 4 members to have rated it has given it 94 (John), 90(Andy), 94(Bradley) and 93(Eric), so high expectations [beg.gif]

Fingers crossed that the Ferreira will show well tomorrow.
I really like their style of VP. It isn't the brawny masculine type that something like Fonseca or Graham's are. Much more elegant like a Warre's.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Tom Archer
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Tom Archer »

I never worry about cellar mould. If you go to some of the old cellars in Oporto you can see bottles covered in cellar mould - have a look through some of the pictures in the photo library at the Niepoort, Cockburn or Vilar d'Allen cellars.
There's mould and there's mould..

When bottles are being cellared in close proximity to wooden casks or tonels, the evaporation from those vessels morphs into a sooty grey black mould-like dust that attaches to everything around.

Away from such conditions, mould is an indicator of slight seepage. This is not helped by the selos which act like wicks, as in your photo.

A cause for concern? Not really, but a good indicator as to which bottles should be drunk first..
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Andy Velebil
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Andy Velebil »

And mold will happen in any humid cellar where paper is present, given enough time. Hence why the Selo is but the wax isn't. Anything more than about 70% relative humidity will start to wreak havoc on paper labels, regardless of what else is around it. Some people I know who have very high humidity in their cellars will either de-humidify or wrap each bottle in saran wrap (plastic cling film) to prevent mold and decay of labels.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Edward J
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Edward J »

Eric Menchen wrote:Perhaps I am slightly spoiled as I try to find those recent release Fonseca non-VPs for around US$ 30, certainly less than $50. And checking now, I see there is a shop in NYC that has it for $25.99. The average on wine-searcher is $56. I let my pro subscription lapse several years ago, but I'd like to think there is a better source for you.
2008 is my daughters birth year so I ordered a case of the Panascal. The delivery was perfect and only $25.99. Early reviews were stellar "expressed the finest young Panascal in my tasting experience, my notes gushing with superlatives." but no recent listings. None coming from me for another 13 years. At the price of many LBV's, when I get the room I should get another one.
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Tom Archer
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Re: Establishing my port collection.

Post by Tom Archer »

And mold will happen in any humid cellar where paper is present
Paper on its own will tend to 'fox' or develop a slightly powdery surface. The creeping furry mould shown in the photo requires the seepage of wine into the paper to feed it.
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