How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

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Eric Menchen
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Eric Menchen »

90% of my buying is over the internet, primarily because I can't find what I want locally, and for the majority of what I can get locally, ordering is still cheaper.
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Tom Archer
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Tom Archer »

ROFL
When you've finished chewing the carpet, ask yourself this:

Where is the evidence to support your claim? Where is the peer reviewed scientific research to prove this?

There is none. You've bought into the hokum.

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Andy Velebil
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Andy Velebil »

Glenn E. wrote:
Tom Archer wrote:Provided your alcohol consumption does not intoxicate you to the point where you are a danger
Alcohol lowers your ability to determine whether or not you are nearing that point.

The point of excess for alcohol is significantly lower than for most "everything else" to which you refer, and it varies considerably from person to person. The UK's consumption guidelines may have been based on nothing more than speculation, but they're at least an attempt to help people be reasonable. They're guidelines after all, and not strict limits.

Very moderate consumption of alcohol likely is good for you, but it only takes a glass of wine per day to reach that threshold. Beyond that, you're flirting with excess with every drink, and you're less likely to realize it with each successive drink.
I've got issues with this. Please point out a definitive study in the USA on alcohol consumption levels. It seems every month there is a new "Study" that either says drinking is good for you or it's bad for you. Some say one drink, some two, and some even more than that. Then a "study" comes out that says drinking any amount is bad for you. How can so many studies be so different? Because it depends on who's paying for the study, how it was done, what were the results they were trying to achieve, etc. There is no set threshold that any two doctors can agree on as to how much is too much, and for very good reason...no two people are exactly alike and all our bodies behave differently.

You don't hear Doctors doing studies saying drinking soda is bad for you, will give you cancer, etc. Yet soda is just as harmful as anything else we consume, maybe more harmful. I watch people drink 3-7 soda's a day without having a care in the world. One person I know actually had the nerve to tell me I shouldn't drink. I promptly told the very overweight person they shouldn't drink a tons of Coke and eat a ton of poor quality food all day because it's bad for them too. Needless to say the person didn't like that comment and said his being overweight had nothing to do with what he ate and drank. Yeah right. And I also pointed out I didn't care for him telling me what I should or shouldn't drink just the same as he didn't like me telling him what to eat or drink....point was made with him.
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Glenn E.
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Glenn E. »

Andy Velebil wrote:I've got issues with this. Please point out a definitive study in the USA on alcohol consumption levels.
There are no definitive studies on anything, Andy. There's always some questions that remain. I'm sure that there are many studies out there, but I don't care enough about it to search for them. You and Tom don't like being told that your favorite tipple just might be bad for you, so you deny the obvious.

I don't need a scientist to tell me that alcohol impairs motor function and decision-making ability. All I need to do is drink a few glasses of Port in a short period of time and I can see the effects for myself. As a cop, I would think this would be very obvious to you too.

You guys sound like climate change deniers to me.
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Moses Botbol »

Wanna turn around port sales? Let me win 100+ Million in Lotto and vintage port sales will have a banner year! [beg.gif]
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Tom Archer
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Tom Archer »

Glenn,

I'm a scientist working with explosives and Andy is a policeman. We both, in different ways, have an interest in facts and evidence.

Parroted hearsay originating from vested interests is neither, and should never be promulgated as fact.

As a relatively heavy drinker for the last third of a century, I have a personal interest in knowing whether or not it is doing me any harm. I can find no good evidence that it is, and a good measure of evidence to the contrary. That I pass my routine medical tests with flying colours is by the by...

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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Glenn E. »

Then you should know that it is not up to the status quo to prove anything. The burden of proof lies upon those who wish to change the status quo. It is a known fact that excessive consumption of alcohol is dangerous. It is up to you to prove that it is actually safe and not dangerous like everyone believes.

The point of contention is the level at which consumption of alcohol becomes excessive. I maintain that it varies from person to person, that you can develop a resistance to alcohol poisoning just like you can develop a resistance to rattlesnake venom, and that the mere act of consuming alcohol makes you more likely to consume it in excess. Feel free to disprove any of those if you can.

While you're at it, google "binge drinking fatalities" then google "alcohol poisoning fatalities" and see what you get.

Then just for giggles, google "water poisoning fatalities" - it's called hyponatremia FYI - and see if they match up. I suspect that Andy has probably at least heard of hyponatremia because he's a cyclist.

And then if that's not enough, we'll have a little test. You drink 750ml of Port in 10 minutes on an empty stomach. I'll drink 750ml of milk in 10 minutes on an empty stomach. We'll see who suffers consequences. Though to be fair since you're admittedly a relatively heavy drinker, you should have to drink Everclear and not Port. You've built up a tolerance to alcohol poisoning over the years.
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Jeff G.
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Jeff G. »

Andy Velebil wrote:Needless to say the person didn't like that comment and said his being overweight had nothing to do with what he ate and drank.

I tell myself that it's Genetics and not all those bottles of port I drink at night.
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Rob C.
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Rob C. »

Hmmm... my personal starting point is that our typical London-based tasting, involving consumption of upwards of one bottle of port per person in a single session, together with an unnecessarily big steak and a few lumps of cheese, followed by an insufficient amount of sleep because i have to be up for work the next morning...is on the whole detrimental to my physical health if done on a regular basis. (But great fun).

Whether it is the alcohol that is doing the damage, or the unhealthy volume of food, lack of sleep and the fact that i have less time to do exercise on the day of the tasting (and am less inclined to exercise in the two days after the tasting!) might be debateable, but what i will say is that that type of drinking does not go hand in hand with a "healthy lifestyle", particularly in the context of a full working week. I don't have any science to back me up, but it is just my assessment based on experience (and i'll leave arguments about long term liver-damage to someone else!)

Likewise if i am drinking half a bottle of port a night throughout the week/year, that probably indicates that i am not doing nearly enough exercise and I'm not going to bed early enough, so whilst the alcohol itself may not be damaging, the lifestyle would be.

However, If i were able to drink half a bottle a day, but I were also able to exercise regularly, eat wholesome food and and get a solid 8 hours sleep per night...who knows....though I'd have to go back to being a student or wait until retirement to find out!!

I suppose my point is that it is not easy to separate out variables - from my personal perspective, if my alcohol consumption is moderate/heavy, it is not conducive to all the other bits and pieces that contribute to a "healthy" lifestyle.
Glenn E. wrote:You guys sound like climate change deniers to me.
Do NOT open up this debate otherwise it will likely prompt a further post in the "other discussions" area...!! :wink:
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Tom Archer
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Tom Archer »

The burden of proof lies upon those who wish to change the status quo
Which in this instance is you - parroting wholly unproven suggestions that more than a glass of wine per day is dangerous.

The onus is on you to prove that claim - and you can't.
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Glenn E.
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Glenn E. »

Tom Archer wrote:
The burden of proof lies upon those who wish to change the status quo
Which in this instance is you - parroting wholly unproven suggestions that more than a glass of wine per day is dangerous.

The onus is on you to prove that claim - and you can't.
Wrong. The generally accepted truth - the status quo - is that alcohol is dangerous when consumed in excess. The burden of proof therefore likes upon you to prove that it is in fact safe.
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Moses Botbol »

How does any of this relate to turning around port sales? [help.gif]
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Jeff G.
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Jeff G. »

Moses Botbol wrote:How does any of this relate to turning around port sales? [help.gif]
easy

the CDC in the US considers anything greater than 2 glasses of wine a day heavy drinking and binge drinking to be having a BAC above .08 ( which is clearly less than a bottle of port)

So we're implying that port sales can't increase until this society sees the trooth about alcohol.
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Jeff G.
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Jeff G. »

actually

one thing i'd LOVE to learn is the per bottle cost of making Port.

Perhaps we can get it answered during one of the guest corners.

it would certianly be interesting to read about.

the great equalizer of demand has always been price. (cheaper == more)
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Glenn E.
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Glenn E. »

Jeff G. wrote:one thing i'd LOVE to learn is the per bottle cost of making Port.
The more that I think about it, the more I'm inclined to vote for Initiative 1183 here in WA. That's the one sponsored (and heavily funded) by Costco because they want to be able to buy liquor directly from producers at volume discount. That's the real reason for the initiative, anyway. There's a bunch of other provisions in it designed to make it appeal to more people, but it's written and paid for by Costco so the bottom line is the real issue. :wink:

My concern is that if Costco is negotiating bulk prices, smaller shops with more diverse offerings might be driven out of business. TFP might like the result because Costco only seems to buy Fonseca Port, but the rest of us enjoy a broader selection so we might not be too happy a couple of years down the road.

[shrug.gif]
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Tom Archer
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Tom Archer »

My concern is that if Costco is negotiating bulk prices, smaller shops with more diverse offerings might be driven out of business.
We've seen this in the UK - same supermarkets, same narrow range of port products..

..the big producers don't help a great deal either, with too many of their products not listed by their agents.

A small retailer will struggle to compete selling products that are also stocked by Tesco et al..

There needs to be a 'B' list of products that are never offered to the supermarkets, but are offered (and competitively so) to the independant retailers.

Tom
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How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Mark Hudson »

Rob,

All these years and I never knew I was British :)

I thought I was the only person who would actually finish off a bottle, a big meal and still get up and go to work the next morning.

And I do serious exercise 4 days a week.

Like the other poster I have been what I consider a medium to heavy drinker for many years. I am approaching 50 and my doctor can't believe my blood work...hardly ever sick a day in my life.

Of course I do believe it's somehow genetics, but making a blanket statement that alcohol is in total bad or good from a health perspective is as someone else said rubbish.
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Roy Hersh »

Glenn,

It is not accurate to say that Costco only buys/sells Fonseca. The closest Costco to where you and I live has been selling Warre's 10 year Otima for two years now. Additionally at least since last spring, they've also had the 20 year old Tawny by Quinta do Portal.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Roy Hersh »

Jeff,

Even if you knew EXACTLY what it costs for cork/capsule/label, the labor cost and even the juice itself ... that would not equate to the actual cost. There are other factors which go into ANY product, like fixed costs of the operation and some variable costs as well. That does not even get into some esoterica which would bore most, like the carrying costs absorbed in covering the lei de terco issues. That said, even if we knew the answer ... that is not what translates to our pricing as consumers. The markups by importers/distributors/retailers is what has the greatest impact on what we pay.

You wrote:
the great equalizer of demand has always been price. (cheaper == more)

Yes, but that is a dangerous game in a trade where some companies are reluctant to pay to play. The dynamics of the Big 5 in the UK and pricing of LBV is the best example. An average of 8 GBP and as little as 5 quid per bottle, shows that demand sometimes has nothing to do with the price. More like "the demands" of the few ...



But please folks, can we get back to the main topic of this thread, which is how to turn around Port sales into the black again.
In light of yesterday's events in which RCV (a company steeped in amazing history) sold out to TFP ... I think this topic is even more important than the day it was started.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Re: How to turn around Port sales into the black again?

Post by Moses Botbol »

Roy Hersh wrote:Glenn,

It is not accurate to say that Costco only buys/sells Fonseca. The closest Costco to where you and I live has been selling Warre's 10 year Otima for two years now. Additionally at least since last spring, they've also had the 20 year old Tawny by Quinta do Portal.
Costco is selling Sandeman 20 year tawny for $39.
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