Establishing my port collection.

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Thomas V
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Establishing my port collection.

Post by Thomas V »

Hello guys and girls.

So up until now I have been purchasing port mostly for immediate consumption. Not until I stumbled upon this forum did I give much though about building and maintaining a cellar. Now I however, have decided that I will go all in and establish a cellar which I can expand and watch grow and mature over the years. I'm the kind of person that when get into something I go all out.

I recently bought a house which actually has a basement which should suit me just fine as storage for the bottles. I will over the next year place a thermometer to make sure that the temperature do not fluctuate to much over the course of a year. I live in Denmark so hopefully it should not be a problem.

My long term plan is to buy a proper wine cabinet with temperature control but for now I was wondering if using a pupitre for storing port is a good and sound choice? Or should I just get a bunch of cardboard wine boxes that I can place on the sides closed so no light get in? I would love to hear your thoughts in the matter.

Now for the real matter at hand. The buying strategy.

I am not poor nor rich and I would say that my budget for port for a year would lie between 900- 1200 US dollars.

As for taste I am currently equally fond of tawnies, colheitas an vintage, however I have had only a few vintages thus far as tawnies and colheitas are more affordable and common.

My current inventory

2011 Taylor's VT
2007 Graham's LBV
20 YO Graham's
10 YO Taylor's
2001 Maynard's Colheita
1999 Barão de Vilar Colheita

I have been contemplating buying some bottles from the Garrafeira Nacional webshop as they seem to fairly priced (correct me if I am wrong) and they some of the producers that I am after.

This is my first version of a purchase from them. As you can see I am buying younger wines now as they are cheaper and the 2 x 2013 bottles I want get my hands on before they increase in price after they get good ratings and increase in price. The reason for the Krohns are I want get some before they are no longer obtainable.

I should probably also look into buying some older VTs which I can start drinking the upcoming years while wait for the 2000 VTs to hit 20-25 years or more. Any suggestions for those 97, 94, 85, 77 or 70?

What are your thoughts on this plan, the choices I have made regarding vintages, producers etc.? Should I buy more than one bottle of each? Is my plan flawed? Am I missing some key bottles there is a MUST include in a start up cellar?

Every day / cellar defender
10 YO Noval
10 YO Niepoort
10 YO Ramos Pinto

2003 Krohn Colheita
2000 Krohn Colheita
1999 Krohn Colheita
1982 Krohn Colheita

Long term storage
2000 Niepoort Vintage
2000 Ferreira Vintage

2011 Niepoort Vintage
2011 Ferreira Vintage
2011 Fonseca Vintage
2011 Ramos Pinto Vintage
2011 Quinta do Vesuvio Vintage

2013 Noval Vintage
2013 Quinta do Vesuvio Vintage

Total price 1000 US dollars

Thanks in advance for any input or thoughts.

Cheers

Thomas
Last edited by Thomas V on Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Eric Menchen
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Eric Menchen »

What fun!

Other than Krohn, which will now be Taylor at a greater price, remember that those tawnies and colheitas are generally not meant for aging. I like them too, but I'm not filling my cellar with them.

Those 20xx VPs will be good some day, and some sooner, but if it were me, I would also be thinking about some older bottles for drinking sooner. They aren't always easy to find at a good price, but nice bottles do show up sometimes, at auction and retail. Some of your countrymen might be able to point to some sources. Oh, and I think there are probably a lot of sources closer and less expensive than Garrefeira Nacional.

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Moses Botbol
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Moses Botbol »

I'd only make an "investment" in tawny in they were rock bottom prices. The best part of tawny is that you can just go get a bottle when needed. As Eric mentioned, they generally are not aging post bottled. Sounds like you have some good 2011's. I would hunt down some 80-85 vintages so you have something aged to drink now. Prices are around what 2011's are going for.
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Thomas V »

Eric Menchen wrote:What fun!

Other than Krohn, which will now be Taylor at a greater price, remember that those tawnies and colheitas are generally not meant for aging. I like them too, but I'm not filling my cellar with them.

Those 20xx VPs will be good some day, and some sooner, but if it were me, I would also be thinking about some older bottles for drinking sooner. They aren't always easy to find at a good price, but nice bottles do show up sometimes, at auction and retail. Some of your countrymen might be able to point to some sources. Oh, and I think there are probably a lot of sources closer and less expensive than Garrefeira Nacional.

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It is both fun and exciting.

I see your point about the tawnies and colheitas, which I am aware of. However I would like a few bottles of them that I can open and drink over the course of a 2-4 weeks. I am the only one in the household that enjoys port (I will have to get the girlfriend to try a White port or port tonic as she likes GT's) and I think I will open the first VTs when I have company over who will appreciate the wine and not alone.

The tawnies and colheitas are also only about 15% of the total price and I really want to try the Noval and Nieeport. I have had the RP10 before but it is around 30 USD cheaper at Garrefeira than my local supplier.

Regarding the older bottles for drinking in the upcoming years, could you give me some example of what you had in mind? Are you referring to 70 & 77 or more thinking in the lines of 97, 94, 84? I have been starting to check out Danish auctions houses for port actions and keep perusing the Danish port vendors webshops for good deals. I will also become a subscriber here so I can partake in Roys great deals.

Are you suggesting I get a pro subscription at wine-searcher? Is it worth the investment? The reason for choosing G.N is that it is actually cheaper on every single bottle than any Danish vendor that I have found and the have most of the brands I am after with this purchase. I will look elsewhere for Kopke, Fonseca and Warres.

Thanks for your input Eric.
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Thomas V »

Moses Botbol wrote:I'd only make an "investment" in tawny in they were rock bottom prices. The best part of tawny is that you can just go get a bottle when needed. As Eric mentioned, they generally are not aging post bottled. Sounds like you have some good 2011's. I would hunt down some 80-85 vintages so you have something aged to drink now. Prices are around what 2011's are going for.
Hi Moses.

See my reasoning for buying the tawnies in the above post.

Regarding the 85 vintages. Which are some you have really enjoyed and would recommend for any decent cellar?

Cheers Thomas
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Moses Botbol »

Thomas V wrote:
Regarding the 85 vintages. Which are some you have really enjoyed and would recommend for any decent cellar?

Cheers Thomas
Here's a sample list. Sure other will chime in with other recommendations. Some of the better ones of the decade are in bold

1980 = Sandeman, Taylor, Graham, Ramos Pinto, Dow, and Ferreira
1983 = Graham, Gould Campbell, Ramos Pinto
1985 = Fonseca, Taylor, Graham, Ramos Pinto, Dow, Gould Campbell, Smith Woodhouse, Burmeseter
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Eric Ifune
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Eric Ifune »

The 1980 vintage is highly underrated, IMHO and entering it's prime drinking phase. I'd get some while prices are still low. Dow's and Fonseca are my favorites, but the Symington brands, in general, did very well.
I might also load up on unfiltered (traditional) LBV's also.
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Eric Menchen »

When I was actively adding to my cellar, I had a pro subscription to wine-searcher.com, and thought it paid for itself. But I haven't subscribed in a few years. I can't say for sure if it would be useful for you or not.

I like a lot of Moses' choices, except for that 1985 Taylor. It would have to be pretty cheap for me to buy that. I also like Smith Woodhouse more for 1985 (I would put it in bold), and for 1983 as well.

Can you buy and ship from the UK? If you can, that might be a good way to go price-wise. I just looked on (non-pro) wine-searcher for 1985 Fonseca in Europe, and the cheapest hits are all in the UK. Then comes a Portugal place other than G.N., a bunch of eBay listings (all the same I think, and I avoid eBay for wine in the US--maybe Europe is better), and then G.N.
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Thomas V »

Eric Ifune wrote:The 1980 vintage is highly underrated, IMHO and entering it's prime drinking phase. I'd get some while prices are still low. Dow's and Fonseca are my favourites, but the Symington brands, in general, did very well.
I might also load up on unfiltered (traditional) LBV's also.
Thanks for your input Eric. I must admit I hadn't thought about the 1980 as a vintage I'd be buying as a drink now port. But I will after your recommendation look into it. As you point out they are probably reasonably priced as it is not a "classic" vintage. You suspect that the prices of those bottles will be climbing the next few years as the 80's will start entering their drinking prime?

Normally I am not a fan of dry wines, which I have the impression Dow's generally are. So if that holds any truth I will probably be looking into Fonseca, Graham's, Warre's and Smith Woodhouse from that vintage. Unfortunately Quinta do Vesuvio did not start making VT until after 1989?
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Thomas V »

Eric Menchen wrote:When I was actively adding to my cellar, I had a pro subscription to wine-searcher.com, and thought it paid for itself. But I haven't subscribed in a few years. I can't say for sure if it would be useful for you or not.

I like a lot of Moses' choices, except for that 1985 Taylor. It would have to be pretty cheap for me to buy that. I also like Smith Woodhouse more for 1985 (I would put it in bold), and for 1983 as well.

Can you buy and ship from the UK? If you can, that might be a good way to go price-wise. I just looked on (non-pro) wine-searcher for 1985 Fonseca in Europe, and the cheapest hits are all in the UK. Then comes a Portugal place other than G.N., a bunch of eBay listings (all the same I think, and I avoid eBay for wine in the US--maybe Europe is better), and then G.N.
Hey Eric.

I have thought about subscribing to wine-searcher pro, but subscribing here is a higher priority. I have also seen in the non pro version that some of those UK vendors have some decent prices on some things. Some of them just also happen to have minimum 6 or 12 bottles policy which I do not like.

But I took a look after I read your post and these are some decent prices I found in the UK.

1994 Cockburn - 42 USD (Is this a bad bottle, seems really low?)

1985 Graham - 70 USD
1977 Graham - 93 USD

1985 Dow's - 57 USD
1977 Dow's - 93 USD

1985 Fonseca - 77 USD
1983 Fonseca - 70 USD
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Eric Menchen »

I was surprised to find I have no record of ever having tasted 1994 Cockburn, nor do I own any. The TNs here aren't all that inspiring.

I've tasted all the rest of those, and my picks would first be the 1985 Fonseca, followed by the 1985 Dow's and Grahams, which I've ranked about the same, but other people would probably go for the Graham before Dow.
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Moses Botbol »

Thomas V wrote:Normally I am not a fan of dry wines, which I have the impression Dow's generally are.
When saying Dow is dry, it's like minuscule at best. Dow is plenty sweet enough. We are talking about port here... If you try Dow next to Warre or Graham; the relative dryness of Dow may not even be perceptible if served blind. Some vintages like '85 or are drier, but take '94, '70, or '77 they are just as sweet. I would not swing my decision to buy a port of a conceived notion of dryness.
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Thomas V »

Eric Menchen wrote:I was surprised to find I have no record of ever having tasted 1994 Cockburn, nor do I own any. The TNs here aren't all that inspiring.

I've tasted all the rest of those, and my picks would first be the 1985 Fonseca, followed by the 1985 Dow's and Grahams, which I've ranked about the same, but other people would probably go for the Graham before Dow.
I think I will buy one of those 1994 Cockburn just to try it out since the price is very affordable.

I haven't had any vintages from neither of those 3 houses so I have no preference or past experiences to go on. I will simply have to cough up the dough and taste them all and find out which style I prefer the most and then reinvest some more into that house. But all the 1985 ones I have been looking at are priced very similar to one another at around 60 - 80 dollars. Same goes for the 1983 where as the 1980 increases in price buy around 20 %.

I do seem to have a hard time finding Smith Woodhouse and Gould Campell.
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Moses Botbol »

Thomas V wrote: I do seem to have a hard time finding Smith Woodhouse and Gould Campell.
Well at least you have a better selection of Niepoort than we do in USA. I have a case of '85 Niepoort VP and it's nothing to write home about. Reason why I did not list it as a pick for that vintage.
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Thomas V
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Thomas V »

Moses Botbol wrote:
Thomas V wrote:Normally I am not a fan of dry wines, which I have the impression Dow's generally are.
When saying Dow is dry, it's like minuscule at best. Dow is plenty sweet enough. We are talking about port here... If you try Dow next to Warre or Graham; the relative dryness of Dow may not even be perceptible if served blind. Some vintages like '85 or are drier, but take '94, '70, or '77 they are just as sweet. I would not swing my decision to buy a port of a conceived notion of dryness.
You are right.

I have nothing to go on here besides what I have read. I will buy some and try them for myself. As you mention there is still quite a lot of residual sugar in port, so it wont be that dry after all [yahoo.gif]

And regarding the Niepoort you are absolutely right. It is very accessible for us Europeans and I am definitely not complaining.
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Eric Ifune »

Thanks for your input Eric. I must admit I hadn't thought about the 1980 as a vintage I'd be buying as a drink now port. But I will after your recommendation look into it. As you point out they are probably reasonably priced as it is not a "classic" vintage. You suspect that the prices of those bottles will be climbing the next few years as the 80's will start entering their drinking prime?
I think the 1980's are still young, some are just entering the drinking phase. Some need more time. They are seriously undervalued. When you say "classic" vintage, what exactly do you mean? I think many 1980's will prove better than their 1977 counterparts. Sorta like 1966 versus 1963. The 1977 and 1963's got all the press, but the 1980 and 1966's might prove longer lived.
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Thomas V »

Eric Ifune wrote:
Thanks for your input Eric. I must admit I hadn't thought about the 1980 as a vintage I'd be buying as a drink now port. But I will after your recommendation look into it. As you point out they are probably reasonably priced as it is not a "classic" vintage. You suspect that the prices of those bottles will be climbing the next few years as the 80's will start entering their drinking prime?
I think the 1980's are still young, some are just entering the drinking phase. Some need more time. They are seriously undervalued. When you say "classic" vintage, what exactly do you mean? I think many 1980's will prove better than their 1977 counterparts. Sorta like 1966 versus 1963. The 1977 and 1963's got all the press, but the 1980 and 1966's might prove longer lived.
Hi Eric

When I write that 1980 isn't a "classic" vintage I am referring to this chart http://www.fortheloveofport.com/vintage-port-chart/ where Roy has rated the different port vintages where classic is the highest grade. I understand it is a general classification of one vintage year and there is variety within the produce of the different houses from said year. As being a novice I have used the chart as a baseline for which vintages I should try out / buy first. But getting more direct advice about the quality of the 1980 vintage from someone like you is very helpful in this early beginning of the process of me finding out which vintages I should try.

When you write longer lived. Do you mean that over time the 66 and 80 will develop more profoundly than their 63 and 77 counterparts?
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Moses Botbol »

Thomas V wrote:When you write longer lived. Do you mean that over time the 66 and 80 will develop more profoundly than their 63 and 77 counterparts?
Most will choose '66 over '63; served side-by-side right now or say the '66 has more life in them. Both 66 and 80 came after "big vintages" and were mostly overlooked by the public at the time.

Consider where you are buying either vintage and their respective storage history.
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Glenn E. »

1966 has definitely been gaining in reputation, especially compared to 1963. That said, I'm not as convinced as some people seem to be and am perfectly happy with either. In fact, if I were buying in that age range I would probably simply go with whichever one was cheaper at the time.

I have also been very pleased with my experiences with 1977 unlike some others who think it may have been overrated. It's entirely possible that I've just been lucky, though, as I don't really get to drink that many 1977s. Some have been stellar; others not so much. But since that's true of every vintage I'm not yet ready to say that 1977 was overrated.

1980, 1983, and 1985 are interesting. They're generally considered to be lesser vintages overall, but each contains some very high quality examples. Overall I might rate 1983 as the best of the three, but 1985 has better individual bottlings. (1983 has nothing to compare to the 1985 Fonseca or Graham, for instance.) 1980 has the Dow which is fabulous, but beyond that I think I usually like 1983 over 1980.
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Re: Establishing my port collection. Advice needed.

Post by Edward J »

This is a subject I can relate to as I've just finished "Phase 1" of establishing our collection. At 58 I'm not really in a position looking for wines that I need to hold for 30 years before they open up. This means I won't be around to see the best 2011's in their full glory, but instead I will see which '63's will last over which '66's. I would have to say that there are certainly less 1966's available in the US vs 1963. But back to the collecting, wants vs. needs. At current consumption of 2 bottles of Port per month we need 24 a year or 480 over the 20 year period I'm planning for. Holidays and special events might require "special" bottles. As I started adding things up my $1,000 budget was no where close to what I ended up spending. After some calculations I spent what we could afford and now have a monthly allowance for new acquisitions and to save for that next must have auction lot. For our cellar defenders search we settled on a LBV port, they are easy to love and right around $20, a great value. For the next level I like the Single Quinta's The 1995's are drinking well and many are around $30, many to explore here at good prices. For special occasions I went more into 1970 which I think is better than 1977 and less risky without all the cork issues but I have a few. For those now coming into their own I went 1985 and a bit of 1983 and 1991. For the future I went heavy into 1994 a great year with many houses producing excellent wines. 2000,2003,2007,2011 are all up for grabs and I add when I find the right price.

So far the cellar is Vintage Port 20% 60's-70's, 20% 1980-1991, 15% 1994, 15% 1997 + , LBV, Single Quinta, 15% , Tawny, Colheita, others 15%
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