Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

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Collin S
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Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Collin S »

Hi, all. This is my first post in this forum, and I am excited to have come across it!

I am a total Port noob, and I went out to buy a bottle for the family for the holiday without having done any research, and intending only to pay what I can afford with my meager, broke student income. What I ended up buying was the Presidential Tawny Porto. I asked the salesman for a rundown, and which I should go for under $30. The guy clearly had very limited knowledge, and possible made a few things up, so I just nodded along.

- This is the one, although it is a small image: http://www.bevmo.com/presidential-tawny ... 0-ml-.html

What I'm wondering is how old, on average, is this Port? I did some research before making this post, but I ended up with very limited and varying results. Basically, what I've concluded is that this bottle is a blend, as all Tawny Ports are (?), but that they are all aged for a minimum of 3 (one source suggesting 7) years, which is a necessity to legally be considered a Tawny Port. The man at the store's jumbled pitch mentioned something similar to this at one point.

So... What's the correct answer? Thanks in advance!
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Andy Velebil
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Andy Velebil »

Collin, first welcome to the forum. It's a basic tawny. So around 7 years in barrel (probably a larger one) as by law a tawny has to be at least 7 years in barrel prior to bottling.

And for FYI, in the USA Presidential is the same as Dalva elsewhere. Just a name change for us here in the states.


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Thomas V
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Thomas V »

Welcome Collin,

Do make sure to serve your tawny port slightly chilled to your family at around 10-13 degrees Celsius and in glasses that curve back in towards the centre to preserve the lovely aromas for a better drinking experience.

If you have time you should read the great FAQs about Port that Roy has made. 3 bullets very relevant for you within this current tawny theme are "What is Tawny Port?", "What is Tawny Port with an Indication of Age?" and "What is Colheita Port?". Happy reading.

http://www.fortheloveofport.com/faqs

Andy at 7 years in the pippa wouldn't it be categorized as a Reserve Tawny Port? Where as a regular Tawny port is between 3-4 years in barrels?
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Glenn E. »

Hi Collin, welcome to FTLOP!

[welcome.gif]

As you've already been told, this is a fairly basic tawny Port. It should be smooth and delicious, but lacking in character compared to a 10-yr old Tawny Port or a Colheita from the mid 2000's. As you discovered in your research, it is indeed a blend, though that is NOT true of all Tawny Ports. (Specifically, Colheitas are tawny Ports from a single year - they are the Tawny equivalent of Vintage Port.)

My understanding of the aging is the same as Andy's - to be a Tawny Port it must have been aged in barrel for at least 7 years. (4-6 years would normally be an LBV.) That said, I have also heard that basic tawnies often achieve their tawny-like color and flavor by blending in white grapes as well as red. I must confess that I don't really know that much about basic and reserve tawnies because I rarely drink them, so have never felt the need to thoroughly research them.

Regardless, it should be a fine Port to share at your party!
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Thomas V
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Thomas V »

Glenn E. wrote:My understanding of the aging is the same as Andy's - to be a Tawny Port it must have been aged in barrel for at least 7 years. (4-6 years would normally be an LBV.) That said, I have also heard that basic tawnies often achieve their tawny-like color and flavor by blending in white grapes as well as red. I must confess that I don't really know that much about basic and reserve tawnies because I rarely drink them, so have never felt the need to thoroughly research them.
This has intrigued me quite a bit regarding reserve tawnies.

According to Richard Mayson a Reserve Tawny must be about 7 years of age (not very specific). This is also what I have gathered of information from other port enthusiasts and what I recalled myself (Still note sure this is accurate). Which means that anything with less age than this must be labelled just Tawny Port?

Also I do not understand you write 4-6 years would normally be an LBV? A LBV is from a single harvest where as a tawny and reserve tawny is a blend of multiple years?

Richard Mayson wrote:
Tawny Reserve
A good introduction to aged tawny, the Reserve category is defined by the IVDP as a Port that ‘boasts extremely elegant flavours, the perfect combination of the fruitiness of youth and the maturity of age, also apparent in their attractive medium golden-brown colour’. These wines are about seven years of age.
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Glenn E. »

Thomas V wrote:Also I do not understand you write 4-6 years would normally be an LBV? A LBV is from a single harvest where as a tawny and reserve tawny is a blend of multiple years?
Ooops, yes you are correct. I have a tendency to think in terms of Colheita when talking about Tawny, but as you said a regular tawny is a blend of multiple years.

Which now makes me wonder... is the 7 year rule only for Colheita also? Hmm... some research is needed...
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Eric Menchen »

Glenn E. wrote:Which now makes me wonder... is the 7 year rule only for Colheita also? Hmm... some research is needed...
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Andy Velebil »

Thomas
Technically, a tawny is aged for at least 7 years. A Ruby port 2-6 years. However.....This is Port we're talking about so I am sure you are probably aware by now from reading here that rules are not exactly set in stone, shall we say.
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Jasper A. »

Andy Velebil wrote:Thomas
Technically, a tawny is aged for at least 7 years. A Ruby port 2-6 years. However.....This is Port we're talking about so I am sure you are probably aware by now from reading here that rules are not exactly set in stone, shall we say.
Aging 7 years, is that not for Tawny Reserves?
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Andy Velebil »

Jasper A. wrote:
Andy Velebil wrote:Thomas
Technically, a tawny is aged for at least 7 years. A Ruby port 2-6 years. However.....This is Port we're talking about so I am sure you are probably aware by now from reading here that rules are not exactly set in stone, shall we say.
Aging 7 years, is that not for Tawny Reserves?
It depends on the producer. Some are in the 7 year range some older. Producers all seem to have their own style/blend that they prefer. So you can get older "average aged" ones.

As for basic tawny's, they tend to be around the 4-5 year mark. Makes no sense as a basic ruby Port can be the same age range, right? Welcome to the world of Port. LOL. As many of us have found over the years, and as previously stated, there are not a lot of hard rules which can't be tweaked. A fantastic example recently was the 1977 Cockburn's VP, which was originally registered with the IVP as a Crusted and never released to the public. Then it was released recently as a VP. With VP on the label. "Douro rules" as I have come to jokingly refer to them.
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Glenn E. »

Jasper A. wrote:
Andy Velebil wrote:Thomas
Technically, a tawny is aged for at least 7 years. A Ruby port 2-6 years. However.....This is Port we're talking about so I am sure you are probably aware by now from reading here that rules are not exactly set in stone, shall we say.
Aging 7 years, is that not for Tawny Reserves?
In the IVDP Regulation no. 36 of 17 May 2005(PDF) I can find regulations for both Colheita (article 4) and Reserve (Tawny or White, article 7) which require 7 years of age, but so far I can't find anything for plain old basic Tawny Port. Since this particular law specifically deals with special categories, the regulations for basic Tawny are likely found elsewhere. I'll keep looking, but it's slow going since the laws are only available in Portuguese.
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Eric Menchen »

Of course 6 years in a small barrel or pipa will make a vastly different product from something aged 6 years in a giant vat/tonel/balseiro.

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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Andy Velebil »

Eric Menchen wrote:Of course 6 years in a small barrel or pipa will make a vastly different product from something aged 6 years in a giant vat/tonel/balseiro.

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But do you really think those super inexpensive basic tawny's are aged in a lot of expensive to maintain old small barrels?
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Eric Menchen »

Andy Velebil wrote:
Eric Menchen wrote:Of course 6 years in a small barrel or pipa will make a vastly different product from something aged 6 years in a giant vat/tonel/balseiro.
But do you really think those super inexpensive basic tawny's are aged in a lot of expensive to maintain old small barrels?
Probably not. But I don't think the barrel expense is that great. Barrels are expensive when you want to get the oak character out of them, which fades with time. And even that expense isn't great. If you are just trying to get some controlled oxidation for which you can use barrels long after the wood has faded, I would think the expense would be lower. (I see prices of $300-1000 for a new 60 gallon wine barrel. For used barrels in bulk, discarded by wineries that want oak flavor, $60 is more typical.)
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Re: Presidential Tawny Port, without an "Indication of Age"?

Post by Andy Velebil »

Eric Menchen wrote:
Andy Velebil wrote:
Eric Menchen wrote:Of course 6 years in a small barrel or pipa will make a vastly different product from something aged 6 years in a giant vat/tonel/balseiro.
But do you really think those super inexpensive basic tawny's are aged in a lot of expensive to maintain old small barrels?
Probably not. But I don't think the barrel expense is that great. Barrels are expensive when you want to get the oak character out of them, which fades with time. And even that expense isn't great. If you are just trying to get some controlled oxidation for which you can use barrels long after the wood has faded, I would think the expense would be lower. (I see prices of $300-1000 for a new 60 gallon wine barrel. For used barrels in bulk, discarded by wineries that want oak flavor, $60 is more typical.)
While the cost for a single used barrel isn't super high, the cost to maintain them which includes to store them and the labor associated storing wine in them (racking, etc) is what is cost prohibitive for such an inexpensive wholesale wine.
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