Differences in various bottlings of 1952 Dalva Golden White Port

[Bradley Bogdan]

Birthday boy today and this evening I am meeting some friends here in Chicago for a wine dinner. I brought the Port and it is a 2006 bottling of 1952 Dalva Golden White, 750 ml. This was purchased in the midst of a battle for FTLOP's business by Presuntisco's owner and that of Jean Philippe, who most here know. This bottle was purchased at 80 Euros.

In a phone call on my last night in Portugal, Goncalo mentioned that not only are the very few remaining bottles of this Port in 500 ml bottles, but they're being sold by C. da Silva at 400 Euros each. Craziness. I've typically liked the 2005 bottling better, but it will be interesting to see how this shows later tonight. After this one, I only have 5 left. So this is the 31st bottle I've opened in the past decade, typically for larger groups across N. America so many people have had tastes of this wine that will likely never try it again.

A shame, as it was a fantastic wine when I was fortunate enough to try one due to the generosity of a member here. Hopefully, Dalva and others continue to make top notch white Ports so that 20 years from now we can fondly remember the '52 while holding a glass of something younger, but just as good, and try to compare. Perhaps the younger vintages of Golden White will get there with another 10-20 years of age.


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(MODERATOR EDIT: I've split this topic off into it's own thread)

[Andy Velebil]

2006 was the last great bottlings of this IMO. 2007 was just slightly behind, but not quite up to the 2006. By 2009 you can tell it wasn't the same port. Then the 500ml started around 2010 and it was quite different as they started running out and we're making it stretch now that it was popular.


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[Roy Hersh]

Andy,

Do you think the later bottlings were "stretched" with anything added to the 1952 juice?

[Roy Hersh]

Along with the 1952, which showed really well, the second time ... initially the restaurant staff did not chill it down, which was my fault ... so I had them chill it down and it was brilliant and none the worse for nearly a decade in bottle.

The other bottle that was served at the end of the meal was a fine showing of 1977 Croft, maybe the best showing of that Port I've witnessed. No spirit or sharp edges, it was hitting on all cylinders.

[Andy Velebil]

Andy,

Do you think the later bottlings were "stretched" with anything added to the 1952 juice?

Like the 1972 or something else? Possible (where's that pot stirring emoticon when I need it, LOL)

As I don't know for certain, that is pure speculation. But based on taste I would say at some point it was legally topped up/refreshed with something younger that changed its profile. As the taste difference, especially from the 500ml bottles, was very noticeable to me having had many bottles of the earlier bottlings. Of course, the benefit of that legal topping up/refreshing is you've just increased how much you have.

And the older ones (2007 and before) seem to be holding up in bottle much better than the later ones. Why that seems to be I have no idea.

[Glenn E.]

legally topped up/refreshed with something younger

My understanding has always been that to have been legally topped up, it must be the same wine. Or possibly just wine from the same year.

If it's been refreshed with something younger, then it can no longer legally be called a 1952 Colheita.

Note that I'm being very specific about the legality... I think we're mostly all resigned to the fact that improper topping up does happen on the sly.

I do agree that there's a pretty distinct difference between the older bottlings and the later ones. I've had several bottles and as Andy said it seems like 2006 was somehow mysteriously the "peak" year for bottling. 2007 is still really, really good but those bottles have seemed slightly off to me without being able to explain it properly. 2008 and 2009 bottlings get progressively ... uh... less awesome? "Worse" seems like overkill because it is still the '52 Dalva Golden White, but the 2008 and 2009 bottlings just can't compare to the 2006 and 2007 bottlings. Starting with 2010 they've been 500 ml bottles, and to me those seem roughly comparable to the 2009 750s.

I only have 2 bottles left - a 2008 and a 2009. The 2009 is the last 750 they sold. Goncalo held it for me to pick up during the 2010 Harvest Tour.

[Andy Velebil]

No, you can top up/refresh with anything. There is no regulation in regards to this. That was made very clear by Oscar and some others in previous posts and AQFTPT.


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[Roy Hersh]

Agreed.

[Glenn E.]

Very interesting. How do they get by US labeling laws, then? Or are our laws just as lax?

[Andy Velebil]

Very interesting. How do they get by US labeling laws, then? Or are our laws just as lax?

I assume it's legal here as it's legal in the country of origin. It's an interesting topic when it comes to older Ports as it's the proverbial elephant in the room. Everyone does it, no one wants to admit it or talk about it.

Generally speaking, It's one of the those things where a younger Port will evaporate in barrel faster than an older one, unless it's refreshed with a younger Port and the overall chemical balance stays similar (i.e. water/sugar/Alcohol concentration). As it ages and it becomes more viscous due to normal Angels Share evaporation, if you don't top it up, eventually it gets to a molasses type state as what is left is basically concentrated sugar with lower ABV. So to keep an older tawny fresh you need that younger stuff added periodically. I see no issue with that I just wish producers were more upfront about it and about how much that XXXX vintage is really what's in the bottle. For example, if you have one barrel of 1930 Colheita left since 1950, how much topping up was done over the past 65 years?

A good example was the Reserve King Pedro where the super old Colheita was found and then bottled. Dirk Niepoort was very upfront about adding in so much mid 1900's Niepoort to freshen it up. That was probably the only time I've seen full truth in advertising and for that I am grateful. And it also is a great example of what happens when you find a super old barrel that needs to be changed from molasses to a drinkable tawny.

[Moses Botbol]

Would agree that with the '52, each round of bottling seemed less grand than the previous. I have had 3-4 different bottlings and the first one was the best. Still an epic, "one of the best ports ever" list candidate either way. To say the later bottlings are "less" does not mean it is still not a fantastic white Colheita. Curious what the next big one will be? '52 is a great Colheita vintage in general.

[Roy Hersh]

It bugs me too when a producer is less than forthcoming with whether they "topped off" (using same vintage wine) or "refreshed" using younger vintage juice. The same goes for Madeira too. I remember all the hoopla here when the SCION was first released.

[Marco D.]

That is very unfortunate. I bought two of the 2009 bottlings, and while I liked it a lot, it was not the profound experience I was expecting. I think I remember Concalvo saying the later bottlings were better since they had longer time in cask. This sucks, as the later bottlings were more expensive.

[Andy Velebil]

That is very unfortunate. I bought two of the 2009 bottlings, and while I liked it a lot, it was not the profound experience I was expecting. I think I remember Concalvo saying the later bottlings were better since they had longer time in cask. This sucks, as the later bottlings were more expensive.

They are still very good, but when you compare them side by side they are not exactly up to the same bar as the older bottlings. And sorry about the price, that was probably a factor of this Forum making them popular

[Glenn E.]

It's all Roy's fault!

I still end up around 95 for the later bottlings, its just that the earlier ones could reach 97-98.

[Glenn E.]

Very interesting. How do they get by US labeling laws, then? Or are our laws just as lax?

I assume it's legal here as it's legal in the country of origin. It's an interesting topic when it comes to older Ports as it's the proverbial elephant in the room. Everyone does it, no one wants to admit it or talk about it.

I wonder, though, because our 40-yr olds have a different label than the rest of the world.

Maybe I'll take some time before it gets too warm in the computer room this afternoon to do some research and see what I can find.

[Marilyn Eickenhorst]

Roy, Andy and David,

Charlie and I still have our 1952 Dalva Golden White Port that we purchased during the 2009 Harvest Tour. I'm not sure of the bottling date, but if anyone comes to the Houston area, we will be happy to open and share.

I also just started a wine travel blog, and posted about the 2009 Harevest Tour: http://winetravelaroundtheworld.com/
I think you might enjoy the write up and photos. Please feel free to point out any mistakes in my "Port primer," and I'll make any corrections.

Marilyn