What exactly are "Old" Colheitas?

[Alan Gardner]

I'm familiar with the 'more recent' definition. However, we're planning on consuming a Colheita that is definitely old (predates the selo).
The wine is a stencilled
LMR Colheita 1915
- very heavy staining on neck. There is a tasting note on this wine in the files, but no discussion of the term Colheita.
There's a picture here
http://www.lassemblage.co.uk/BOLMR15B01 ... sc&page=49

this looks identical (except ours doesn't have the BBR sticker).

Does anybody know if this is just 'Portuguese for Vintage' (in this case) or whether there's some more restrictive isssue involved?
Thanks.

[Eric Ifune]

No selo. I'm guessing old bottled. In that case I do think Colheita means vintage. I believe the legal use of Frasqueira or Garrefeira started when Portugal joined the EU.

[Andreas Platt]

No selo.

I have to chime in...it has a selo...and that is a seal that is stamped into the red wax.

Just had a look at my 15 or so bottles and it can be seen on all of them.

And even on the BBR bottle I can identify it.

But if we're talking about the paper seal then you're right.

Cheers

[Alan Gardner]

Thanks Andreas,
Indeed there is a stamped selo - it's the rectangle with rounded corners, although the inscription is hard to decipher (my magnifying glass is still 'missing in transit' since I moved) although the red-brown wax is totally intact.
I was just trying to eliminate responses that described the current definition, which clearly doesn't apply to this bottling.

My additional research shows that 'some' bottles have a label indicating bottled by Cossart. A close examination of my bottle shows there was 'almost certainly' a back label of some kind that is now completely missing - the 'dust mark' suggests almost square (estimated just under 3" wide by maybe just under 2.5" high).
Do any of your bottles have an intact back label (which you could describe)?

This actually confuses the issue further (IMO) - Cossart's rarely (if ever?) used the term 'Colheita' on their bottles (at least none that I can recall) - so why use it here? It was certainly deliberate, as all bottles seem to have this.

[Andreas Platt]

Hi Alan,

I think Peter is spot on with his seal: http://www.madeirawineguide.com/pics/ab ... ef-pic.jpg

But in case you're interested I'll take a pic on Friday and post it here.

In regards to the MWC bottles...I think they purchased them once and then put their stencil or label on, but the wine should is the same.

Cheers

[Andreas Platt]

Hi!

Here are 2 pictures of one of my bottles.

Cheers

[Alan Gardner]

There are several similarities to mine.
The LHS looks 'close' but the RHS isn't as clear - maybe they were 'hand-stamped' and there was a slight twist on mine.

But I'd like to see the back label of the Cossart Gordon 'bottling'. The reference books definitely imply a different bottling (as opposed to a purchase of already bottled stocks).

Do any of yours have the back label (clearly MIA on my bottle)?

EDITED TO ADD
Not sure what happened to my picture - if I click on it, it's huge with the seal in the centre.
I'm not a regular uploader of pictures, so will try and figure out what happened.
If one zooms out to 25%, the picture shows clearly.

(MODERATOR EDIT: I resized your picture so it was smaller and clearer for all to see. Andy)

[Roy Hersh]

Portuguese: en Garrafeira typically means, "put in bottle" or in most cases on the mainland, Garrafeira means bottle or bottled, (with Port it is different as it can also be a style, now only made by Niepoort).

Colheita does not mean vintage, in Portuguese it is synonymous for "harvest".

[Alan Gardner]

This still doesn't really answer the question of why the term Colheita was used on these specific bottles; most madeiras use the year without any qualification - so why use the term Colheita unless it implied something 'different' from any 'usual' bottling.

Total speculation, but I subsequently got around to reading the linked article on this thread
http://www.fortheloveofport.com/ftlopfo ... =2&t=39076
and it pointed out that if the barrel lost 2% per annum in 'angel's share' (my words), then after 100 years a wine would be almost completely consumed by the angels - leaving very little to be bottled - not a particularly brilliant idea, so it's possible that 'most vintages' would be topped up while still in barrel - I'm wondering if "colheita" might imply that the barrel was never topped up, i.e. only wine from the stated harvest. Then, presumably placed in demijohn (although the bottle in question here doesn't have any indication of when bottled or demi-johned).

[Eric Menchen]

Angel's share is not very linear. I'm not saying that topping up doesn't happen, but you can't just do the math with 2% and assume that will apply year after year.

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[Glenn E.]

I believe that we were told on the Harvest Tour in 2014 that evaporation drops to 1% or even lower after 30-35 years.

[Alan Gardner]

I believe that we were told on the Harvest Tour in 2014 that evaporation drops to 1% or even lower after 30-35 years.

Clearly it cannot continue at a rate that extinguishes the remaining liquid (or we wouldn't have ancient madeiras - from barrel anyway). However, the 'knowledge' that it reduces to 1% (or less) seems 'lacking in scientific examination'. I doubt whether anyone is actually measuring it - so it looks like speculation as to the number. Winemakers and producers have (occasionally) been known to have opinions, not necessarily based on facts.

Logically the rate of evaporation is linked to the volume (or more likely surface area) exposed to the barrel (or air - except air seems less likely as exposed area will increase as the level in the barrel drops). So the angels seem likely to get their portion through absorption into the wood, with the angels sucking it out from there. Old barrels tend to get lined with tartrates (and other chemicals presumably) and tartrates will seal the barrel from the inside, which could exceed the sucking power of said angels.

I know I've read somewhere that the ABV changes as wine ages in barrel (I think it increases, but my memory isn't totally reliable and a Google search didn't find anything believable). If ABV increases, It seems reasonable that the mechanism is absorption by the barrel as water is a smaller molecule than alcohol. If ABV decreases then evaporation seems more likely as alcohol is more volatile - but that's logic, not science, and other factors could come into play.

Any angels out there who can explain how they get their share?

[Glenn E.]

Logically the rate of evaporation is linked to the volume (or more likely surface area) exposed to the barrel (or air - except air seems less likely as exposed area will increase as the level in the barrel drops). So the angels seem likely to get their portion through absorption into the wood, with the angels sucking it out from there. Old barrels tend to get lined with tartrates (and other chemicals presumably) and tartrates will seal the barrel from the inside, which could exceed the sucking power of said angels.

This was the reason given when it was explained to us, along with the sugars in the Port (or Madeira) helping to create a seal.

Which of course begs the question... if the barrel is being sealed from the inside, how is the wine still oxidizing?

ABV should decrease over time, if anything, because alcohol is more volatile than water.

[Alan Gardner]

"Depending on the relative humidity of the cellars, wine may either increase or decrease in alcoholic strength (Guymon and Crowell, 1977). High relative humidity suppresses water evaporation, but has no influence on alcohol loss. Consequently, the alcoholic strength of wine decreases in humid cellars. Under dry conditions, water evaporates more rapidly than ethanol, resulting in an increase in alcoholic strength. In addition to water and ethanol, small amounts of acetaldehyde, acetal, acetic acid, and ethyl acetate are lost by evaporation from barrel surfaces (Hasuo and Yoshizawa, 1986)."

This extract is taken from Wine Science by R.S. Jackson but the theory would apply to any alcoholic beverage that is aged in oak barrels.

[Eric Menchen]

Thanks Alan for actually finding some studies on this. I may have to look at some of those in more detail.

I was thinking the initial loss probably included some addition due to absorption by the wood.

I hadn't even thought about the barrel sealing itself, but I can certainly see that as a factor. Putting beer into barrels I regularly see leaks immediately upon filling. Some go away as the wood swells a tiny bit more. But some also go away as the leak seals itself. You check a drip location 24 hours later and you see a tiny bit of dried up beer on the outside. Could something similar be happening in the cellulosic structure of the wood?

[Glenn E.]

Great find Alan, and now that I've seen that it makes perfect sense.

[Bob Stern]

Engarrafado means bottled or 'placed in bottle'. (We will give Roy a pass, knowing his schedule and the late hours he keeps.)

Garrafeira and Frasqueira (synonymous) actually mean wine cellar or storage, and one might surmise that the use of these to designate the year that the 20 year barrel aging began seems a logical explanation for their adoption. As mentioned, we usually don't see 'Colheita', or 'Frasqueira' and 'Garrafeira' on old bottles. The use and current meaning of these latter terms were "invented" in 1982. Only since the producers have taken the liberty :-(( of bottling single harvest wines after only five years, and calling them 'Colheita', do we now see these terms on newer bottlings for differentiation. A bottled Colheita does not become a Frasqueira/Garrafeira after 20 yrs, because it has not been barrel aged for the requisite time.

In regard to the 1915, it was probably just the whim of the bottler. It certainly seems that this was bottled well before any of these designations came into current use. Cossart probably did not bottle the wine. They, the MWA or MWC most likely purchased or inherited the lot from LMR or the family, and distributed them through their usual channels.

[Bob Stern]

Additionally, because it wasn't otherwise designated, one would presume that the LMR 1915 to be a blend or tinta negra, as opposed to one of the 'noble' varietals.

I would appreciate hearing your impression of the wine....thanks

[Andreas Platt]

Hi Bob,

it is clear what the 1915 LMR is...see my pic on CT...

http://ct-static.com/labels/87370_thumb.jpg

[Bob Stern]

It sure does...this further suggests that "colheita 1915" is just something the bottler decided to print, without any rule or convention at the time. The bottling clearly occurred prior to any EU regulations. I reviewed both Liddell and Cossart and found nothing to suggest otherwise (as Alan also probably did). The lack of other pre-EU examples (and if they exist, not a significant number), in itself probably supports this view.

I would appreciate Alan's tasting notes and his impression as to the time in wood; whether this supports a reasonable (20/+ years) time in wood and how much the angels received.