The Order of Things and a Tasting

[John M.]

I notice that during tastings over 6 ports, some people struggle with the last ones. So it has me wondering if placement in the order of the tasting can effect opinion results. I try hard to keep my palate fresh and clean (water, plain bread/crackers) but even I wonder if I become a different taster as the event unfolds. It has occurred to me to buy a magnum and split it into two regular bottles and see what happens during a tasting.

Does anyone else have this concern or think it exists? What do you do to keep your palate fresh?

[Glenn E.]

I notice that during tastings over 6 ports, some people struggle with the last ones. So it has me wondering if placement in the order of the tasting can effect opinion results. I try hard to keep my palate fresh and clean (water, plain bread/crackers) but even I wonder if I become a different taster as the event unfolds. It has occurred to me to buy a magnum and split it into two regular bottles and see what happens during a tasting.

Does anyone else have this concern or think it exists? What do you do to keep your palate fresh?

It is definitely a concern and I know from experience that the effect can be pretty dramatic, but it isn't always in a negative direction.

I'm a fairly recent Port drinker, and I've never been much of an alcohol drinker. (Translation: I'm a lightweight.) In addition to all of the tannins and acidity in Port, 20% alcohol has a pretty dramatic effect on your palate over time as well whether you're spitting or not. So when I started doing tastings, I managed pretty good notes for the first 4-6 Ports, then I struggled for the next 2-4 Ports, and then after that they went downhill fast. Beyond 12 my notes were basically useless. Now that I have ~10 years of experience with Port I can usually make it through 12, but I start fading right around that point even now.

What I noticed about my notes and scores is that when fresh, my notes are much more detailed and my scores are more critical. Once I start getting fatigued (and drunk ) my notes appear to indicate less complexity, but my scores actually tend to go up by a point or two. I guess that makes me a cheap date, right? One glass of the good stuff and then I'll drink anything!

I've learned how to even out my scores over a tasting, but it took a concerted effort on my part. And it takes concentration to do, which is just one more reason why I prefer smaller tastings (defined as 12 or fewer Ports) over larger ones.

[Eric Menchen]

Palate fatigue is definitely real. I find that 8 is a good number of things to taste, which often is two flights at a tasting. Sometimes I can do more (or less) straight up, but I do find a refresher of some sort helps. At least one google hit suggests that the issue is mental, not physical, I would presume outside of the obvious physical effect of getting drunk. I do practice what that link suggests and find it does help. When I'm struggling with my notes or impressions, I do get up, go to the bathroom, walk around and look out a window ... these do seem to help. Sometimes after this I come back and write a very detailed TN.

Looking at my tasting notes over the evening, I have had cases where the alcohol has definitely set in and the notes have become scarce. On the other hand, I think there are cases also where inebriation is not a factor, but after four or six wines, the next ones just aren't all that interesting or different, and maybe not as good as things tasted earlier, so I don't write as much. But then something great comes along, and bam!-I write a paragraph. I think this suggests another angle to the fatigue issue, that we become more selective in our energies with time.

I think the idea of pouring a magnum two different places in a tasting is a great one. I want to do a tasting of 1994 VPs and have a few magnums from that vintage. It is tempting ...

[John Trombley]

At a 'serious' tasting, whatever that is, it's a great idea to encourage guests to spit, and provide containers for dumping and so forth. One can always go back and drink, as opposed to taste. But I find incredible resistance to this practice at tastings I give, most people thinking that it's somehow 'gross'. You get over that when you visit cellars and taste lots of wine, and everyone is spitting,even on the floor or into the drain gutters therein.

Be cool and ask for a dump bucket, and save yourself a DWI ticket!

[Andy Velebil]

At a 'serious' tasting, whatever that is, it's a great idea to encourage guests to spit, and provide containers for dumping and so forth. One can always go back and drink, as opposed to taste. But I find incredible resistance to this practice at tastings I give, most people thinking that it's somehow 'gross'. You get over that when you visit cellars and taste lots of wine, and everyone is spitting,even on the floor or into the drain gutters therein.

Be cool and ask for a dump bucket, and save yourself a DWI ticket!

I think this is the best advice. At very large tastings I often will spit the first go around, which is usually where I only take one or two sips to write my notes with. I'll then come back and enjoy the ones I like after and if needed to update any notes. That slows down the buzz factor and the palate fatigue from kicking in too early.

[John M.]

OK--will try it.

[Eric Menchen]

But I find incredible resistance to this practice at tastings I give, most people thinking that it's somehow 'gross'.

I provide opaque plastic cups or coffee mugs, which makes it easy to be discreet if that's a concern.

[Moses Botbol]

I think this is the best advice. At very large tastings I often will spit the first go around, which is usually where I only take one or two sips to write my notes with. I'll then come back and enjoy the ones I like after and if needed to update any notes. That slows down the buzz factor and the palate fatigue from kicking in too early.

I am with Andy on that one. Do your serious stuff first. Break it up into flights if need be and then just enjoy the port after that. Meal in between never hurts either. If all VP, do an old flight and then a newer flight. New and old mixed is going to be overshadowing the old stuff.

[Roy Hersh]

Typical group tastings here for FTLOPers that fly into town can range up to 16 Ports per day/night. It is a lot for some people and I always bring opaque spit cups and dump buckets and give a little preamble, in which I encourage people to spit and also to drink lots of water. We also have a baguette for each guest. Between bread and water, one can cleanse their palate, ingest a few neutralizing calories and hopefully stay focused. I realize it is not easy, especially if you are not used to doing this. Some individuals seem to handle it better than others. Some spit nothing and drink every bit in their glasses. Others spit everything they put in their mouth and by doing so, you can do far more than you think.

In 2013, I remember the 2011 Vintage Port Tasting event in Porto put on by the Confraria do Vinho do Porto, there were 56 of the 2011 VP samples to try ... with 3-4 hours to complete the task. That did not leave a lot of time to dawdle and the flights came shortly after the prior one was finished. Can you imagine doing over 50 YOUNG VPs in such a small amount of time? Here we do 16 Ports and usually spend nearly 5 hours. It was quite a chore to take notes and finish the Ports in that amount of time. But by the end, my palate was pretty crusty from the tannins and I know that Dirk Niepoort and Charles Symington also felt it was a crazy way to taste all of those Ports.

[Bradley Bogdan]

Typical group tastings here for FTLOPers that fly into town can range up to 16 Ports per day/night. It is a lot for some people and I always bring opaque spit cups and dump buckets and give a little preamble, in which I encourage people to spit and also to drink lots of water. We also have a baguette for each guest. Between bread and water, one can cleanse their palate, ingest a few neutralizing calories and hopefully stay focused. I realize it is not easy, especially if you are not used to doing this. Some individuals seem to handle it better than others. Some spit nothing and drink every bit in their glasses. Others spit everything they put in their mouth and by doing so, you can do far more than you think.

In 2013, I remember the 2011 Vintage Port Tasting event in Porto put on by the Confraria do Vinho do Porto, there were 56 of the 2011 VP samples to try ... with 3-4 hours to complete the task. That did not leave a lot of time to dawdle and the flights came shortly after the prior one was finished. Can you imagine doing over 50 YOUNG VPs in such a small amount of time? Here we do 16 Ports and usually spend nearly 5 hours. It was quite a chore to take notes and finish the Ports in that amount of time. But by the end, my palate was pretty crusty from the tannins and I know that Dirk Niepoort and Charles Symington also felt it was a crazy way to taste all of those Ports.

I remember you telling of your 2011s Confraria tasting experience at a tasting some time after and I was blown away. I feel I handle palate fatigue relatively well, but the brain/palate combo is usually gassed for serious evaluation after 15-20 Ports in a tasting, and those larger tastings have all been relatively mature wines. It's mind boggling to me that anyone would be able to keep a palate fresh enough to get past 15-20 giant young ports, much less 50. The tannin buildup alone must have been impossible to get around. Something like that is the wine equivalent of Hercules' Augean stables. That said, on some level, it had to be amazingly delicious though


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[Roy Hersh]

A few bloggers and a couple of serious Port aficionados, used that tasting as the basis for their opinions of the vintage. While I found it a challenging exercise, even though writing somewhat solid notes on all of what I tasted, it requires palate stamina that only builds with time and practice. It is certainly not for everyone and spitting is not only essential but healthy. Nonetheless, time only allowed for basic notes ticking off specific organoleptic characteristics, as well as descriptors of the aromatics & flavors, I never even bothered to match up my notes to a corresponding sheet, (received afterwards) that listed the producers in order.

This was the ultimate example of what I've long called, a "snapshot view" of a Port (blind or not). While it's certainly possible to get a quick impression of each glass, it offers little else; imo.
While in the midst of such an experience, some tasters subconsciously focus on the number of VPs yet to arrive. From my viewpoint, the focus is more akin to judging at a competition, using a strict 20-point scale based on the wine's qualities. In that situation, quirks may appear too obvious in the moment and obscure the realities of the Port's youth and ability to improve with age. A tanky or heavily Touriga Nacional based infant VP can present funky, occasionally volatile notes that may be unpleasant initially; yet they may completely morph into something far more pleasant three days into an eval. Lastly, under those tasting conditions it is nearly impossible to determine how the wine will evolve in future decades -- as that requires reviewing an infant VP over several days to allow all of its personality to emerge. Those are just some of the reasons why single-impression speed-tastings are not my thing, (especially when having that many to taste, per hour).