Mário Melhano, São João da Pesqueira...

[Will W.]

...and Diogo Maria Soveral, Nagozelo do Douro. Has anyone ever tried (or even heard of) older colheitas bottled under these labels? They are starting to appear at auction in Europe and do not look like old bottlings, though they are without IVDP seals. Indeed, the labels of the two 'houses' are not dissimilar. A follow-up question might be this: is it permitted to sell porto without an IVDP seal?

I present all this at 'port basics' on the understanding that there are no (overly) stupid questions!

[Andy Velebil]

Can you post a picture of the bottles or put a link so we can look at the listed pictures? That would help greatly.

And no, it's not uncommon for older bottles not to have a Selo.

[Will W.]

Melhano.jpg (2.79 KiB) Viewed 2505 times

Soveral.jpg (16.52 KiB) Viewed 2505 times

Excuse my technical ineptitude... At any rate, there are a few years on offer from both 'houses,' ranging from 1905 to the 1950s, though everything looks to me like it was bottled and labelled at the same time (i.e., not that long ago). The bottling dates themselves are nowhere apparent. The latter fact, combined with the absence of a selo on evidently-recent bottlings, strikes me as - how shall I put this to avoid defaming anybody? - unorthodox.

[Glenn E.]

A new bottle without an IVDP seal strikes me as... fishy at best.

[Andy Velebil]

A new bottle without an IVDP seal strikes me as... fishy at best.

I was thinking the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Andy Velebil]

Here's the link to the auctions

http://oportunityleiloes.auctionserver. ... d%2F886%2F

and

http://oportunityleiloes.auctionserver. ... d%2F886%2F
The latter is of a 1915 Port. Similar wax, generic label type, bottle, and different producer.

I'm calling these fake as they are coming form an auction house in Portugal. Not sure if it's the same auction house that sold the fakes to Allan. Someone needs to contact the auction house on these.

Oportunity Leilões, Lda
Rua Engenheiro Ferreira Dias, 1173
4100-247 Porto
Portugal
Telf.224966065



Contribuinte Nº. 508152810

porto@oportunityleiloes.com

NIB: 0010 0000 3850 4890 0033 9

[Frederick Blais]

It is not impossible that a small grower keeps a few bottle or barrels of his own Port each year in his cellar. You only need a seal from IVDP when you are releasing the wine on the market. Of course, the IVDP would have had to approve it back in the days.

If this is genuine fortified wine from Douro, without the IVDP seal, it would have to be sold as Vinho Generoso to be legal.

That person would simply clean the bottle or recent bottling for Colheita, wax it and get a new label. It does not have to look old. Just like many big companies releasing old Vintage with the new label, capsule etc.

[Andy Velebil]

It is not impossible that a small grower keeps a few bottle or barrels of his own Port each year in his cellar. You only need a seal from IVDP when you are releasing the wine on the market. Of course, the IVDP would have had to approve it back in the days.

If this is genuine fortified wine from Douro, without the IVDP seal, it would have to be sold as Vinho Generoso to be legal.

That person would simply clean the bottle or recent bottling for Colheita, wax it and get a new label. It does not have to look old. Just like many big companies releasing old Vintage with the new label, capsule etc.

Yes, but there is an auction house in Portugal that has been caught selling fake older bottles of Port. These just so happen to also come from an auction house in Portugal. Unknown at this time if the same auction house (can anyone shed some light if it is?). Are from different producers (some from the purported same producer are different very old years). Same bottles. Similar labels. Same or very similar wax seal. No IVDP Selo. The odds are these are fake. I'd bet lunch on it.

[Allan Engelsted Laurents]

I have seen the bottles! They are not similar to all the fakes I ran in to...

I think the bottles are ok....and just Coming back.....went to my portcabinet, and - sorry Roy - this was for You, and Your next visit to Denmark....pulled out one of the posted bottles, this one a 1957.

I know, it looks suspicious, but I can tell You, (just served it blind to my girlfriend...) this bottles is a Colheita from 1957
Beautiful on the Nose, very sweet and creamy. A little short, but it was opend just 2 min. ago...

Theese wines are allright! No fakes here.

Why they dont have a IVDP-selo? I have no clue....

[Andy Velebil]

Allan,
While it may be Port inside the bottle I am still very suspicious. These all mysteriously showed up at one auction house at what appears to be about the same time. No Selo's, same bottles, similar wax, and strangely similar simple labels from supposedly different producers. I find it very odd that such a thing could happen. I think this goes into the category of "If it sounds too good to be true....". There is also a 1915 one as well I found. I'm sorry but there are WAY too many red flags surrounding these at the moment.

It's not hard to put a good younger tawny into a bottle and claim it's far older. It's next to impossible to tell an exact age of a tawny by taste alone. I've had young ones show really old and old ones show really youthful. That is the downside of being able to top up barrels with whatever vintage one wants to.

I'd be very curious if anyone in Portugal knows who these producers are and if these are legit or not.

(EDIT: I've reached out to someone in the Douro to check on these bottles. Will report back when I hear something).

[Will W.]

The auction, which is online, is just now getting underway. By way of a summary, the suspicious bottles on offer break down as follows:

Melhano label

1915 x 3 bts
1937 x 4 bts
1944 x 2 bts
1957 x 3 bts

Soveral label

1905 x 4 bts
1947 x 2 bts
1950 x 2 bts
1960 x 2 bts

I have nothing like the experience of the other commentators here, but the last few months sniffing around various dealers and auction houses leaves me somewhat suspicious, which is why I sought guidance at this forum in the first instance. 'Tis much appreciated and, whilst I shall stay clear of the aforementioned offering, I will be keen to hear what the said contact in Portugal comes back with, if anything.

[Andy Velebil]

The auction, which is online, is just now getting underway. By way of a summary, the suspicious bottles on offer break down as follows:

Melhano label

1915 x 3 bts
1937 x 4 bts
1944 x 2 bts
1957 x 3 bts

Soveral label

1905 x 4 bts
1947 x 2 bts
1950 x 2 bts
1960 x 2 bts

I have nothing like the experience of the other commentators here, but the last few months sniffing around various dealers and auction houses leaves me somewhat suspicious, which is why I sought guidance at this forum in the first instance. 'Tis much appreciated and, whilst I shall stay clear of the aforementioned offering, I will be keen to hear what the said contact in Portugal comes back with, if anything.

Wlil
Thanks for providing the update. I didn't see a couple vintages you listed so good to know and the lot size as well.

[Will W.]

Apologies Andy - I should have noted that all are individual lots of one bottle each, spread around the auction as a whole.

[Will W.]

First suspect bottle, a '1937,' just went for EUR 57.50, including commission. We are evidently not the only ones with suspicions, given that clearly (one would think) legit bottles are realising the sort of prices that would be expected.

[Allan Engelsted Laurents]

Andy, I understand why You are suspiscious.

The bottle I just opend tonight, where bought more than a year ago - from the same auctionhouse.
I Dont remember the Price, but it was not more than 65$
I only got it, because it is Roy´s year of birth...

But, I have been drinking more than 100 old Tawnies +50 years of age. And this one taste really good!
Nothing like the fake bottles I experienced last october.

It dosnt explain the lack of selo number.... But the wine is Port - and a good one!

Allan

[Andy Velebil]

Andy, I understand why You are suspiscious.

The bottle I just opend tonight, where bought more than a year ago - from the same auctionhouse.
I Dont remember the Price, but it was not more than 65$
I only got it, because it is Roy´s year of birth...

But, I have been drinking more than 100 old Tawnies +50 years of age. And this one taste really good!
Nothing like the fake bottles I experienced last october.

It dosnt explain the lack of selo number.... But the wine is Port - and a good one!

Allan

Not hard to fake a real wine. Rudy K fooled many very high end Burgundy and Bordeaux collectors and even people like Robert Parker, Jancis Robinson, and other top critics. How he did it? He "made" wine by combining various cheaper priced but real wines into his older more expensive fake cuvée. I mean look at how good blended tawny's are (10, 20, 30, etc). There is no way anyone is going to say "Hey, this is a blended tawny and not from a single year."

I'm just pointing out that just because something tastes good does not mean what is listed on the label is what is actually in the bottle.

Another odd thing with these bottles is the price. Old tawnies in Portugal sell for a ton of money in shops. Why put these into an auction where you are getting a fraction of the price you could get selling them to a store or even selling them yourself. These are multiple bottles from different very old years of what appear to be recently bottled and corked Port. Not some one-off bottle someone had in their cellar for many years and just wanted to get rid of. It just doesn't make sense at the moment.

[Christian Gollnick]

Looking at the bottle, I would think the words "Garafeira Particular" explain the missing seal of the IVDP. I googled the words and wanted to get them translated into English - and I realized how famous Roy has become:

http://www.linguee.com.br/portugues-ing ... cular.html

I'm not sure, but might this be something like "caseiro" port? Port wine that was never declared to the Port Wine Institute - and therefore it can not be commercially sold. That would explain why there is no seal, as the IVDP wouldn't taste and approve such a non-declared wine. The fact that the Port hasn't been approved by the institute would of course bring the price down to the level that we are seeing here.

I personally love the "caseiro" Port. It's always an adventure to drink... I had absolutely fantastic and absolutely terrible Port "caseiros"...

With regards to these wines: Well, there is the name of the grower on the bottle - that is obviously a private person and not a company. Before we destroy this person's reputation in this forum we should try to find out more about this Diogo Maria Soveral. In September I will be 2 weeks in the Douro - and I plan to visit the village of Nagozelo and to have a look at the operation of this "vitivinicultor". The strange thing is that there are wines from so many different years offered - I know families that have a barrel from 1880 or 1904 somewhere in the basement - but I don't know any family that would have 15 or 20 barrels with undeclared old Port... But, it will be fun to find out more about this person and the wines.

[Glenn E.]

Looking at the bottle, I would think the words "Garafeira Particular" explain the missing seal of the IVDP.

Great catch, I can't believe I missed that. I've had a few Garrafeira Particular bottles over the years, including 2 different ones from Quevedo. The translation that I was told is that it means something along the lines of "special bottling" or "private reserve", so very similar to what that link says.

So yes, that does easily explain the lack of a Selo, as well as the newness of the bottles and labels. These could easily have been hand-bottled and given to someone as gifts, though it does also still seem like a lot of them to be showing up all at once.

I'm back to "on the fence" now, as opposed to "very suspicious."

[Andy Velebil]

The strange thing is that there are wines from so many different years offered - I know families that have a barrel from 1880 or 1904 somewhere in the basement - but I don't know any family that would have 15 or 20 barrels with undeclared old Port... But, it will be fun to find out more about this person and the wines.

I think this and the fact that both "producers" used the same bottle, waxed the tops, and had similar labels. It appears the same person did all the bottling and labeling. At the very least it's extremely odd.

I'm still waiting to hear back from a contact.

[Roy Hersh]

I have old and young bottles that mention, "Garafeira Particular" on the label. The reason for the low asking price at auction is because nobody knows if these are real, who the producer is and when they were bottled. The producer is easy enough to find out about, and then the rest of the story will become clear.

These were obviously bottled very recently, as the condition of the matte finish of the near-perfect bottles and labels and wax capsule ... does raise a suspicious eyebrow. However, the possibility of these being caseiro bottlings, should not be ignored. I've visited producers that have handed out bottles that were done specifically for us, without IVDP labels, bottled and waxed within 24 hours of our showing up. An auction house in Portugal, should not be selling these without IVDP labels ... in new bottles, unless they are very aware of the circumstances.

I am sure Andy will continue to "snoop out the facts" from friends in PT, so stay tuned.