Organic Port?

[Scheiny S]

i have a friend who is a bit of a hippie and the other day said he prefers to drink organic wines because he doesn't want all the pesticides and such involved in modern farming. i know that there are Ports labeled "organic" [Fonseca has one and i think i've seen a post on here about one by Graham]. but i was wondering, vinyards that grow grapes for Port are pretty heavily regulated, aren't they? even if they're not labeled "organic" is Port grown and made using fewer manmade chemicals than typical wine?

[Bradley Bogdan]

i have a friend who is a bit of a hippie and the other day said he prefers to drink organic wines because he doesn't want all the pesticides and such involved in modern farming. i know that there are Ports labeled "organic" [Fonseca has one and i think i've seen a post on here about one by Graham]. but i was wondering, vinyards that grow grapes for Port are pretty heavily regulated, aren't they? even if they're not labeled "organic" is Port grown and made using fewer manmade chemicals than typical wine?

While you're right there's a lot of regulation, much more of it centers around the production and sale side rather than the farming. The big farming regulation is that Port grapes must be dry farmed, which wouldn't really make a difference to your friend.

That being the case, that doesn't mean there aren't people farming organically. Niepoort's Bioma VP is one such example of a wine with organically farmed grapes.

As a side note, I'm not sure you could make an organic Port, just a Port with organically grown grapes. For a wine to be considered organic, you aren't allowed to add any SO2, which IMHO is a bad idea in general, but would be even sillier in a wine with a bunch of un fermented sugar.


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[Andy Velebil]

Great timing. I recently found Trader Joe's near me was selling Graham's Nutura (sp?) Organic Port. I've not yet opened it to try since I've felt like a Mac truck has run me over this past week; AKA - having a really bad case of the Flu. Will report back when I open it which may be this weekend if I keep feeling better.

[Frederick Blais]

You can add SO2 in an organic wine, you are limited in the amount you can add though to get your certification. You can spray as much as you want sulfer and copper as well, you just can't use any chemicals in the vineyards.

The problem in the Douro is that the Beneficio for Port drives most of the 30k+ growers to make sure they deliver healty grapes in good quantity so they can make easy money.

Since 2015 Niepoort is also switching most of this Douro vineyards into biodynamic, it is a huge task as they have big vineyards.

I also know Casal de Jordoes makes organic wine and Port.

[Bradley Bogdan]

You can add SO2 in an organic wine, you are limited in the amount you can add though to get your certification. You can spray as much as you want sulfer and copper as well, you just can't use any chemicals in the vineyards.

The problem in the Douro is that the Beneficio for Port drives most of the 30k+ growers to make sure they deliver healty grapes in good quantity so they can make easy money.

Since 2015 Niepoort is also switching most of this Douro vineyards into biodynamic, it is a huge task as they have big vineyards.

I also know Casal de Jordoes makes organic wine and Port.

The rules might be different in Portugal, but to be labeled as Organic Wine in the US, you can have no added sulfites, so no SO2 at all.


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[Frederick Blais]

You can add SO2 in an organic wine, you are limited in the amount you can add though to get your certification. You can spray as much as you want sulfer and copper as well, you just can't use any chemicals in the vineyards.

The problem in the Douro is that the Beneficio for Port drives most of the 30k+ growers to make sure they deliver healty grapes in good quantity so they can make easy money.

Since 2015 Niepoort is also switching most of this Douro vineyards into biodynamic, it is a huge task as they have big vineyards.

I also know Casal de Jordoes makes organic wine and Port.

The rules might be different in Portugal, but to be labeled as Organic Wine in the US, you can have no added sulfites, so no SO2 at all.


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My understanding of "no added" sulfites is during winemaking steps, not during vine growing. One tiny details, a wine without sulfites does not exists. During fermentation, sulfite is naturally produced.

[Moses Botbol]

Virtually all the big name ports are darn near organic as it is. I wouldn't sweat the pesticide aspect much. Organic doesn't mean it's healthier for you. Arsenic and copper are organic...

[Eric Ifune]

Easier in the Douro to go organic since the climate is not as conducive to a lot of the fungal diseases.
Copper is still considered biodynamic. Miles Edlmann a well known viticulturist discusses it here. A bit controversial.
http://www.worldoffinewine.com/news/the ... m-4704802/

[Andy Velebil]

Virtually all the big name ports are darn near organic as it is. I wouldn't sweat the pesticide aspect much. Organic doesn't mean it's healthier for you. Arsenic and copper are organic...

I think this is important to remember. I've had some pretty long discussions with a vineyard manager I know about this.

The short version: There are FAR more toxic things used for organic farming than for non-organic. SO "Organic" isn't so good for you or the field workers growing it. A lot of marketing from the "earth" people who have no idea what really goes on in the real world of farming on a large scale.

[Moses Botbol]

There needs to be another term or class other than Organic or Bio-Dynamic, like "Mindful Farming" or something to that nature.

Beyond just how the grapes and vineyard are managed; how about the people who work it? A lot coffee is sold on how well/fare their workers & farmers are treated, but what about in wine? I haven't seen that same context marketed with wine; have you?

[Glenn E.]

"Organic" hasn't been anything but a marketing gimmick since basically forever. It's a completely meaningless term used to target people who are willing to pay more for their food.

[Bradley Bogdan]

Easier in the Douro to go organic since the climate is not as conducive to a lot of the fungal diseases.
Copper is still considered biodynamic. Miles Edlmann a well known viticulturist discusses it here. A bit controversial.
http://www.worldoffinewine.com/news/the ... m-4704802/

His thoughts are similar to the winemaker I worked for back in NY. She and her husband owned their vineyards and put a tremendous amount of time and effort into thoughtfully managing their vines. The overarching idea they went by was that if something wouldn't degrade naturally in the soil in a reasonable amount of time after use, they weren't interested in using it. Being situated right on a lake, they were especially concerned about things that not only would accumulate in the soil, but would also accumulate in the lake. Copper based sprays is something that they had strong opinions about.


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[Edward J]

The thing is that mono culture factory farming is based on using the dirt as a placeholder and not living soil that acts in a symbiotic relationship with your plants. Organic farming started out with this ethos in mind, Biodynamics, a step further. However here in the US, big Agra make the rules and they have co-opted "Organic" and decided to cash in on another lie. More and more local farmers are eschewing "Organic Certification" and are calling their produce "Beyond Organic".

For vineyards, the Terrior is most important. Taking care of it should be #1 for wine makers. How many times have you heard "the vines must suffer" to get a great wine? Up in the Anderson Valley, Navarro Wineries has noted that using liberal amounts of organic compost has made a difference in the quality of their grapes and helps with their low SO2 practices.

I have been growing most of our food for the last several years using nothing but composted organic matter and water. No Miracle Grow (poison to your soil) or anything else. We have been using raised beds but now with the chickens things are transitioning to a Permaculture design. Permaculture is about as anti-factory farming as it gets and represents a real opportunity for low impact sustainable living.

More reading; http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-Home ... 1603580298
http://www.amazon.com/One-Straw-Revolut ... revolution

[Scheiny S]

Virtually all the big name ports are darn near organic as it is.

that's what i thought. i don't know where to start looking, can you think of any articles off the top of your head saying as much?

I wouldn't sweat the pesticide aspect much. Organic doesn't mean it's healthier for you. Arsenic and copper are organic...

"Organic" hasn't been anything but a marketing gimmick since basically forever. It's a completely meaningless term used to target people who are willing to pay more for their food.

yeah, i've known that for years. it also doesn't mean the field wasn't directly next to a road to absorb all of that lovely runoff. but try explaining that to hippies...

thanks!

[Frederick Blais]

Virtually all the big name ports are darn near organic as it is. I wouldn't sweat the pesticide aspect much. Organic doesn't mean it's healthier for you. Arsenic and copper are organic...

For the vineyards they own but not the one they buy grapes from.

[Andy Velebil]

yeah, i've known that for years. it also doesn't mean the field wasn't directly next to a road to absorb all of that lovely runoff. but try explaining that to hippies...

thanks!

Hah That one always makes me laugh because it's amazing how many people (read that as Hippies) think that this one little plot is somehow "safe" from the worlds evil because it's been labelled "organic".

[Eric Menchen]

I recall one of the guests here on FTLOP (guest corner, industry person) discussing when he learned about organic methods. He wasn't going to use them 100%, but apply some of them, because in the end it is sometimes better/safer to use 1 kg of man-made chemical than 10 kg of something that is considered organic, but not necessarily good for the environment.

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[Andy Velebil]

See my TN I just posted on the Graham's Natura Reserve Organic Port.