Dow 1896 Nebuchadnezzar (20 bottles)

[Roy Hersh]

I will only be in Portugal 2x this year but not positive of the exact dates of the harvest trip yet. May is doable but won't know the exact dates I am leaving the country until I book my flights next week.

I am 100% in agreement with Alex that the Port comes first. No question about that! There will be more to consume with dinner, but we do want to be able to evaluate this critically. What happens if folks fly over, pay lots of money and the wine bottle is bad??? :twisted: It is VERY possible that will be the case.

In my opinion if we are paying that much for the wine, the food should be DEEPLY discounted given everyone's expense. Otherwise, negotiate the price of the bottle OR get some sort of guarantee that we don't pay for the bottle if the wine is bad. Why should we fork out that kind of money and absorb ALL the risk. No way! It is lying down in the restaurant or standing up. Is it kept at cellar temp? We need some details here and someone shrewd to do the negotiations.

My vote would be to get Linden Wilke involved. He puts on dozens of high end wine events and has a mailing list that is rich with winelovers in London. I'd trust him with my money and especially to do the hard job of negotiating for a better price with less risk attached. Wouldn't it be a bummer to have Jancis, Broadbent and Mayson there and the Port is lousy? I could certainly also arrange to have one of the Symington's at the event. What about after this year's Harvest Tour in Oct., since a bunch of FTLOP folks will be in the area anyway?

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

All very good points. We know that the wine list says

586 Dow 1896 Nebuchadnezzar (20 bottles) (Level: into bottom neck) 24 hours notice is required to clear this from our bonded warehouse. 4 feet high and 4 stone in weight, this hand blown bottle was ordered for a 70th birthday celebration in the 1920’s. The person in whose honour the dinner was being held sadly died, the party was cancelled, but as fortune would have it the bottle has survived. A phenomenal vintage, excellent provenance and fantastic value at the equivalent of £500.00 per bottle. £10,000.00

which suggests that it is currently well kept. Currently. The list also covers another question:

Some of these old Port houses no longer exist; many are absurdly rare. They are opened at the customers risk and will not be refunded in the extremely unlikely event that they are for any reason out of condition. We justify this on the basis that they are extraordinarily good value and it is worth the punt to make tasting history! The provenance for all these wines is excellent.

Caveat emptor.

[Jay Powers]

I am very interested. I like the raffle idea as well. And the thought of drinking Port with Mr. Broadbent is quite attractive as well. If I had a list of people to share a wine with (that I have not already done so with), he would be at the top. Having met and shared Port with 10 or so people on this forum, I can say they are a pretty nice group as well, and well worth a repeat.

It seems like negotiations would be in order though. How long has this been on the winelist? If it's quite a while then price may be negotiable and that should certainly be investigated.

And, god forbid, should it be off, what could be the backup plan for the 40 people who have traveled up to 12,000 miles for the event? Some serious thought should be applied here.....how's the list at the resturant? Possible backup there?

Jay

[Tom Archer]

Count me in - where is this restaurant?

Tom

[Al B.]

Take my silence as consent for everything that has been suggested since my last posting here.

I would be happy with a date in the first week of September, but also happy with a date in October to tie in with the next Roy Hersh / Mario Ferreira harvest tour round the Douro.

I **really** like the idea of asking Linden to organise this if others are in agreement. He does have a lot of experience in organising such events. If we can organise 30-50 people to attend and make it on a day when the restaurant would normally be quiet (say a Monday) then I would assume that we could negotiate a deal with the restaurant where we pay for the wines we consume but get our food for free.

I also support Julian's suggestion that (with the possible exception of Linden if he agrees to organise the event and as payment for his work) all who attend should pay their share - this worked extremely well with the offline that I organised in November 2005.

Roy - if you manage to make it this would be a wonderful story to include in the book I keep suggesting that you write.

Alex

[Derek T.]

I don't think I have seen this much enthusiasm on the Forum since Tom's Noval 31 discovery!

Can I ask whether anyone on this board either has, or knows of someone who has, tasted Dow's 1896 in the last few years? I think the prospect of this bottle being a top quality VP experience is somewhat remote. Yes, it will be a once in a lifetime experience to taste it, but the cost of this compared to the chance of it being a great tasting experience seems to be a fairly poor bet, particularly if the group are taking the entire risk that the wine is not flawed.

All that said, this thread obviously has my attention :?

I agree with the views above in terms of negotiation and back-up wines. If a group of people are willing to pay a restaurant £10,000 for a bottle of wine that they have had for some years then I think it is not unreasonable for the restaurant to lay on some food to accompany it at no extra cost.

Here is another thought - what sort of fabulous line-up of top quality VP's could be brought together for £10,000 ? - why taste 1 when you could taste 20

Derek

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

A bottle of an 1896 is, at best, a fifty-fifty shot. But a Nebuchadnezzar will age more slowly, and better.

At least, that’s my theory until it’s disproved.

[John Danza]

Can I ask whether anyone on this board either has, or knows of someone who has, tasted Dow's 1896 in the last few years? I think the prospect of this bottle being a top quality VP experience is somewhat remote.

In the latest edition of his book, Broadbent tasting the wine in 1998 and said it was in great shape, very similar to a 1945. If the bottle was bottled properly and has been stored properly, I think there's an excellent chance that the wine will be in great shape. The 1896 vintage was an excellent one to begin with. I don't think it's asking a lot of a great vintage to be still together 110 years later with this volume of liquid.

That said, I think it would be great if we could learn the following:
1. Who bottled it?
2. Has it ever been recorked?
3. Get a picture of the storage conditions and the wine fill itself.

The only concern I have is with the quality of the cork and was it sized properly for the bottle. In a previous thread I mentioned having some double magnums of 1977 Taylor. It had started to seep a little, so I decided to open it. While the wine was great, I was very surprised at the short cork that the bottle had. Clearly the product of a scarce bottle size and a special order. Hopefully this 1896 has a sufficient cork.

All the best,
John

[Bob bman]

The 1896 Dow was included in a 1999 Dow vertical tasting done by James Suckling of Wine Spectator (who would probably like to attend as well, if he could). His tasting notes follow:


"Amazingly youthful from its dark ruby color to its intensely fruity aftertaste, this old Port defies the odds. Shows raisin, black pepper and fruit aromas that follow through on the palate. Full-bodied, long, sweet and viscous.--Dow vertical. Drink now. –JS
Score: 98
Current Auction Price: $767
Issue: Dec 31, 1999"

Note the auction price, which is considerably lower than what is being asked today, though it was over 7 years ago.

I would give my left arm to attend this tasting, but my travel to London is infrequent and the timing is usually beyond my control.

[Guest]

Depending on the date we settle on, I'm interested.

As there are many here who have indicated they may be heading to Portugal with Roy again for the Harvest Trip, it seems like it would be great to try and organize it around that trip, especially for the folks coming over from the states.

If the wine is bad, the trip participants would have a whole week with Roy in the Douro to make up for it

[*sweetstuff]

How and by whom will this monster be decanted? How long in advance will it need to 'settle down' after being moved from warehouse to restaurant? And, most important, I hope that the person who was contacted first and who could only repeat rules isn't the one who will have anything at all to do with this dinner! It seems to me that this is such a big even that the restaurant should be willing to close down completely for you. You should also think about publicity (do you want it or no, since it's such an historic occasion?)

[Roy Hersh]

John,

I am in complete agreement and that is why I mentioned some names of folks in the UK that I know well enough to contact for this type of event. Mayson & Broadbent would make sure it was in Decanter and Jancis covers tons of territory in her own right. Of course, getting schedules aligned will be the biggest challenge.


Julian wrote:

A bottle of an 1896 is, at best, a fifty-fifty shot. But a Nebuchadnezzar will age more slowly, and better.

At least, that’s my theory until it’s disproved.

Great, we have an "underwriter"as I assume that by your confident statement above, you are saying that you'll be willing to pay for this bottle, should it not show well. Given that you are a gambler of this sort, clearly we could split the cost of your glass, as long as you come prepared to pay for the entire bottle if IT should disprove your theory.

[Derek T.]

I think the event would certainly attract more people if they knew that someone else was underwriting the event in this way.

Derek

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

Julian wrote:

A bottle of an 1896 is, at best, a fifty-fifty shot. But a Nebuchadnezzar will age more slowly, and better.

At least, that’s my theory until it’s disproved.

Great, we have an "underwriter"as I assume that by your confident statement above, you are saying that you'll be willing to pay for this bottle, should it not show well. Given that you are a gambler of this sort, clearly we could split the cost of your glass, as long as you come prepared to pay for the entire bottle if IT should disprove your theory.

Let's assume I think that, because of its size, there is a 80% chance it’s “good” and a 20% chance it’s “bad” (without yet discussing how we determine which). So if I pay £10k for this bottle, and then sell it to a consortium of FTLOP members for £12½k with a refund if “bad”, I’m at breakeven. (My expected P&L = –10 +12½ –20%×12½ = 0, measured in £k.) That mark-up is considerably more than the suggested half the cost of my glass. And if I think the probabilities are 75%:25%, as I do, the fair price becomes the less round £13,333.33⅓. And that assumed that I am risk-neutral, which few of us are, though the calculation of the fair mark-up in a non-risk-neutral world is more intricate.

Then we would have the problem if I think it’s “not great but not off” (I would say that, wouldn’t I) and everybody else claims “it’s off!” (they would say that, wouldn’t they). That disagreement would damage what could otherwise be a splendid evening. (Further, my not knowing whether I’m +£3⅓k up or –£10k down would badly distract from my evening’s pleasure.)

So I have a different proposal. We all self-insure: we take the risk. Those who think that there is a high chance of it being off don’t come; those who don’t, do.

Sorry.

[John Danza]

[quote="jdaw1So I have a different proposal. We all self-insure: we take the risk. Those who think that there is a high chance of it being off don’t come; those who don’t, do.[/quote]

That's a perfect solution. "You pays your money and you takes your chance", as the old saying goes. It does make sense to have the current owner comment on storage and for the bottle to be evaluated visually during the setup of the event.

Anything additional from the restaurant about an event?

Thanks,
John

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

There is progress: more information is coming soon…

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

At last I have spoken to the seemingly-competent Nathan Evans, who is the manager, and who had been busy opening another branch of the restaurant and hence not returning my calls. He told me that the bottle was bought from, and is still in the Balham cellar of, Jeffrey Benson, from whom I have previously bought port. Nathan Evans also said that he would happily make space for us by shutting part of the restaurant; that food would be an excellent deal (I have forgotten his precise term); and that Monday is their ideal day.

Jeffrey Benson says that the “bottle and seal has been authenticated by Duncan McEuen, director of Christies wine dept who came here with Ranald when purchased. This hand blow bottle is extremely rare and was bottled I was told for a 70th birthday in Ireland which due to illness did not take place. I personally removed this from the cellars of Abbey Leisk in 1977. It weighs 4 stone and stands 4ft high. Although the bottle is completely opaque from shaking the level it would seem to be at the very top shoulder or higher. I have drunk Dow 1896 in bottle last year and it was still youthful.” Apparently it has not left Benson’s cellar since 1977.

“Attached photographs of this monster bottle - the photo of the wax seal did not come out well but it is marked Dow 1896” (picture of bottle and picture of seal).

[John Danza]

“Attached photographs of this monster bottle - the photo of the wax seal did not come out well but it is marked Dow 1896”

Thanks very much for the photos! Unless there's an optical illusion in the first one, the fill appears to be very high, with the level being at about the height of the bottom of the tag. That's a great sign.

Did the person you spoke to give you any indication of how the bottle is stored (on its side or upright)? From the fill level, I could conclude that it's stored on its side, but it might be a bad assumption.

Thanks again for all the work on this one.

John

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

JB by phone: “It has been stored on its side — I have only just stood it up to photograph it.”

It hasn’t moved from his cellar since 1977, and I (jdaw1) have been in that cellar: eminently satisfactory†. Apparently the bottle was acquired from where it had lain for decades, and was then lying comfortably on its side.

He says that the bottle is too opaque to see the level, so I’m guessing that is indeed an optical illusion.

† JB sold me a bottle of Taylor 1900 that was huge, full of classic Taylor backbone, and came from the same Irish cellar. One of the most impressive ports I have ever had the honour of sampling. Though, to be fair, at the same time he sold me a Taylor 1851 that was rank. Other old bottles have been in good condition, others haven’t. You pays your money, you takes your chance.

[Jay Powers]

I say we give Broadbent (Sr.) a pass on the fee. I'm sure this gentleman's witty comments and descriptions would more than pay his way. Plus bonus exposure for Port in Decanter, if you care for such things.

Seriously though, he's old enough to comment on what the 45's and maybe even 31's tasted like in cask (well, maybe bottle for the 31's).......You simply cannot pay for that kind of historical insight. Count it as part of the atmosphere and scenario that we would be buying.

Jay