is this VP or Colheita

[Gerwin de Graaf]

I am a bit unsure about a 1927 VP which is on the market.

the label says Vintage port (matured in wood, but that's not uncommon), but the necklabel, which states the year (millesimé 1927) also says "Tawny".

See the picture.
Is this a VP of more likely to be a Colheita? And, is it worth trying to buy this (of course depending on the price)?

[Moses Botbol]

Shooting from the hip I would say colheita, but if it's not too expensive I would buy it either way.

[Andy Velebil]

Tawny (Colheita).

Fill is very good. Appears to be bottled in recent few decades. Why isn't there a Selo on it though?


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[Gerwin de Graaf]

Tawny (Colheita).

Fill is very good. Appears to be bottled in recent few decades. Why isn't there a Selo on it though?


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Part of the puzzle is the absence of the selo indeed (could indicate that is was bottled a very long time ago (which may indicate that it is a VP after all). Or it can be explained if it was bottled outside of Portugal (France perhaps, given the "millesime" indication).

I'll put in a bid on it (a lot of two bottles comes up in an auction very soon), and see what happens. Either way, I think it will be a great pair of bottles to get (even if the price is a bit high - close to my absolute maximum of what I am prepared to spend on 1 bottle-)

[Andy Velebil]

Two bottles? What's the back story the auction company is given on where they came from?

It's probably real. But given how much old Port is being faked right now, I'd send a pick to Royal Oporto and ask their opinion on it.


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[Moses Botbol]

It's probably real. But given how much old Port is being faked right now, I'd send a pick to Royal Oporto and ask their opinion on it.

Bravo if that is not real to the counterfeiters. Excellent job on the foil. I'd bet on it being real.

[Andy Velebil]

It's probably real. But given how much old Port is being faked right now, I'd send a pick to Royal Oporto and ask their opinion on it.

Bravo if that is not real to the counterfeiters. Excellent job on the foil. I'd bet on it being real.

Actually what I'd be more concerned about is a real bottle that someone has replaced the label(s) with something it's not to increase value.

I do agree, the old lead capsules are harder to duplicate than more current types and wax. Not impossible though.


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[Gerwin de Graaf]

Two bottles? What's the back story the auction company is given on where they came from?

It's probably real. But given how much old Port is being faked right now, I'd send a pick to Royal Oporto and ask their opinion on it.


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Just to be sure: an e-mail including picture has been sent to Royal Oporto, and I've asked the auction house for some more information about provenance of these bottles.
Thanks for the tips Andy!

[Moses Botbol]

Actually what I'd be more concerned about is a real bottle that someone has replaced the label(s) with something it's not to increase value.

I do agree, the old lead capsules are harder to duplicate than more current types and wax. Not impossible though.


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They did a great job on adhering the label too! What do you think each bottle is worth at auction all considered; $300-400 or more?

[Gerwin de Graaf]

I just received a reply back on my message to Royal Oporto (Real Companhia Velha), from mr Pedro Silva Reis (president).

He let me know that they "don't recognise the labels on the bottles as being original and have a strong feeling that the bottles are fake". And he also said they recently encountered fake old bottles in a Portugese auction.
So I let the auctioneer know that I received this message.

Earlier I sent a message to the auctioneer as well with a couple of questions regarding the seller of the bottles. They let me know, that these bottles come from a new client (not a known seller), and that there is no additional information on the bottles (other than that they are sure that the bottles are old, I replied by asking how they have determined this).

So all in all, I think the risk is to big for the bid I put in at first, so I lowered my bid by 50% (I still am curious about what it really is). Now I don't expect to win the bottles, but should I get them at my bid, they will not have been too costly (a little gamble of some sort).

Thanks for your tips guys! You may very well have saved me from a costly (potential) mistake. And if I do get the bottles, I am more than happy to share one of them with you all (if we ever are in the same area, or continent ) to see what it contains.

[Moses Botbol]

Wow, that is some interesting updates.

I would do as you are with a low ball bid. I hope the fake port trend stays on your side of the pond! Not that I go for the real fancy stuff, but to think they are faking stuff to look that old; foil and all is crazy!

In the US, it's fake Whiskey that has taken hold in the last few years big time.

[Andy Velebil]

As I suspected. If you get them very cheap worth sending off a sample for testing too see what it is first. IIRC the last fake bottle of RCV someone found here RCV tested it and it wasn't something you'd want to drink. So be very careful.

Moses, Fake Port (and Madeira) is already here in the USA


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[Moses Botbol]

Moses, Fake Port (and Madeira) is already here in the USA

You got beat? Just busting chops. Madeira I would be more nervous on than port with potentially buying a fake.

Speaking on Madeira purchases, some of our local B&M's are doing their annual Madeira buys with attractive prices of anything the producers have available.

[Eric Ifune]

There has been fake Madeira seen in Europe. At least some seem to have a Portuguese source. There are other cases where old bottles of a 5 or 10 year old have been relabeled with rare Vintage labels.

[Roy Hersh]

Yes, caveat emptor.

But also beware of all the conspiracy theorists and fake news.

Likely that bottle was bottled pre-1980s or several decades earlier, based on the photo, it doesn't appear to be a recent bottling to me. It may have been something that RCV bottled for a particular client in France, but it certainly could have also been bottled in Belgium or another French speaking country. I believe it is an old Tawny from a specific year (1927) and may never have been sent for approval of IVDP, if it was bottled as a BOB many years ago.

I have consumed tons of old Vintage Ports that had no IVDP selo on the bottle and these were long before any bottles of fake Ports had ever been known to exist.

[Andy Velebil]

So let's be analytical about this because I used to handle fraud cases and that's the best way to approach these things.

Here's a Port no one in living memory has ever seen before that we know of. That includes all of us here, who collectively have seen and drank a ton of Port, and the actual producer. No one has ever seen these for sale before either. All of a sudden there are multiple bottles for sale at multiple different places. There is no back story from a verifiable source as to where they came from.

Hmmm, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out something isn't quite right here.


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[Glenn E.]

I just received a reply back on my message to Royal Oporto (Real Companhia Velha), from mr Pedro Silva Reis (president).

He let me know that they "don't recognise the labels on the bottles as being original and have a strong feeling that the bottles are fake". And he also said they recently encountered fake old bottles in a Portugese auction.

While I would tend to take Mr. Reis at his word, sometimes (often?) even the producers don't have accurate records or a complete picture of everything that they have produced.

I once asked a producer (through an intermediary) for a list of years they had produced a certain Port. The answer that came back did not include a bottle I had in my possession, which when offered up to the producer came back with something like "oh yeah, that year too."

So while they're by far the best source of information about old Port, they're not perfect. There are numerous ways that these bottles could be legitimate... as there are also numerous ways that they could be fake.

I think in this case you've take proper precautions and have adjusted your bid accordingly. They're worth something, but not anywhere close to what bottles that could be traced/recognized would be worth. They're neither provably fake nor provably real.

[Glenn E.]

Hmmm, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out something isn't quite right here.

If you were going to fake Port, would you choose a producer that only true Port nerds would have any chance of recognizing, and then create a never-before-seen label for that producer, and then further raise suspicions by calling it both Vintage Port and tawny at the same time? That's just asking for trouble from the only people who would have any chance of being interested in the bottle.

Or would you make up a batch of 1927 Taylor that every neophyte wannabe Port know-it-all would think was both a good year and a good name?

I'm not saying the bottles are real. I'm just saying that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be fakes, either. Logic can be applied both ways.

[Andy Velebil]

Hmmm, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out something isn't quite right here.

If you were going to fake Port, would you choose a producer that only true Port nerds would have any chance of recognizing, and then create a never-before-seen label for that producer, and then further raise suspicions by calling it both Vintage Port and tawny at the same time? That's just asking for trouble from the only people who would have any chance of being interested in the bottle.

Or would you make up a batch of 1927 Taylor that every neophyte wannabe Port know-it-all would think was both a good year and a good name?

I'm not saying the bottles are real. I'm just saying that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for them to be fakes, either. Logic can be applied both ways.

It worked quite well for Hardy and Rudy for a very long time.


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[Eric Menchen]

Fake juice. Sad.

(sorry)