20-25 year respective / '85 vs '94

[Moses Botbol]

Do you feel 1994-1995 ports taste the same today as 1983-1985 ports tasted 10 years ago? I recently had some 94's and did not get the impression of them being in the same place as 85's were ten years ago. Actually I don't find (let's take Grahams as an example) that '85 has evolved much from how I recall it tasted 10 years ago yet '94 seems younger when I taste it now. I've even reviewed some tasting notes from now & then; they were quite similar for '85.

What's your impression on the '94 now vs '85 then? Is that '94-95 are better vintages and their young profile today is reflective of a better vintage? Does retrospection cloud an impartial review?

[Glenn E.]

Great topic, Moses!

Unfortunately I don't have a clear picture, because 10 years ago was only shortly after the time I was just starting to collect Port for a cellar. I didn't have much experience with VP at all back then, because I'd been drinking almost exclusively 20-yr old and the occasional tawny for my first ~4 years of Port drinking.

But my dim recollection is that 1985 "back then" wasn't as fruity and vibrant as 1994 is now. It was still young, just in a different way. From what I understand 1994 was sort of the forefront of more modern production techniques (Roy? Andy?), so it may be that those techniques produce Ports that remain fruitier into their middle age(s).

Along the same lines, what I remember of 1977 "back then" fits with my impression of 1985 now. So those two vintages seem to be following similar aging profiles to me. But again, these memories are pretty foggy and indistinct for me.

I'm really interested to hear what more experience Port drinkers have to say!

[Tom Archer]

'94 is the vintage that keeps running away from me..

At the end of 2008 I concluded that VPs under 18 years old were neither very enjoyable nor informative drinking choices, so I stopped opening them at home. In 2012, having reached the requisite age I opened just one '94 (a Cockburn) before putting the minimum age back to 21, and put it back again to 24 years before 2015 had dawned.

Well 2018 has now dawned, and the 94's have reached their majority (again..) and finally I will (sometime this year..) revisit the '94s for home consumption..

So I can't really comment on '85 vs '94 then and now; but can observe that a decade ago, there was no contest between the mainstream '75 and '85 VPs - the 85's were mostly very much better (Croft and Cockburn excepted). Today however the 75s have improved remarkably whilst many 85s are looking a bit ragged. I'm quietly confident though that those '85s that are not plagued by VA will find a serene maturity in another decade, just as the '75s have done.

And of those that are VA afflicted? I'm intrigued to know how this fault will evolve over time. One doesn't encounter VA in very old bottles, but you do occasionally get a varnishy one - I wonder if that is the natural destiny of VA - or something completely different..?

[Andy Velebil]

'94 is the vintage that keeps running away from me..

At the end of 2008 I concluded that VPs under 18 years old were neither very enjoyable nor informative drinking choices, so I stopped opening them at home. In 2012, having reached the requisite age I opened just one '94 (a Cockburn) before putting the minimum age back to 21, and put it back again to 24 years before 2015 had dawned.

Well 2018 has now dawned, and the 94's have reached their majority (again..) and finally I will (sometime this year..) revisit the '94s for home consumption..

So I can't really comment on '85 vs '94 then and now; but can observe that a decade ago, there was no contest between the mainstream '75 and '85 VPs - the 85's were mostly very much better (Croft and Cockburn excepted). Today however the 75s have improved remarkably whilst many 85s are looking a bit ragged. I'm quietly confident though that those '85s that are not plagued by VA will find a serene maturity in another decade, just as the '75s have done.

And of those that are VA afflicted? I'm intrigued to know how this fault will evolve over time. One doesn't encounter VA in very old bottles, but you do occasionally get a varnishy one - I wonder if that is the natural destiny of VA - or something completely different..?

VA is something that never goes away and it never "blows off." It only will get worse over time.

Regarding the 94/95 comparison. I don't think you can compare the two. While there are some very nice '95s they are mostly fully mature now and have always been on a far faster maturing curve than 1994's. Top '94s being still very primary and many years away from even starting to reach maturity.

85/94 is a good pair to compare. My thoughts are this...after the mass produced and thus lesser quality 1975's, issues with 1977's starting to show, 1980 which for many producers were lack luster, and 1983 that was good but really just average for most, the trade was desperate for a really good vintage such as 1985. And 1985 gave them that. Sadly, time has shown that a number of 1985's suffer from the same mostly average issues as 1983's do....that is, a few really good ones but most are just average. While it's easy to knock producers and say stuff like "They dropped the ball", "Asleep at the wheel", etc. it really was a time that major viticultural and winemaking changes were taking place and consolidation and take overs by large corporations. When changes of that scale happen there will always be a gap where things make a temporary drop while new techniques are perfected. By 1987 you can see those changes resulted in the fantastic 87s. I'd argue 1987 made better VP's than even '85 and if declared it would have been the best VP's of the decade. Instead we had to wait until 1994 (yes, I ignored the mess of 1991/1992).

By 1994 the producers had dialed in their now not-so-new techniques and were back firing on all cylinders, as the saying goes. If one could not make a decent 1994 one probably shouldn't be in the VP making business. Very much like 1970, it was a vintage that handed producers a fantastic set of grapes to work with. The only issue with some '94s is VA was still plaguing some companies that hadn't cleaned up their act (well, their cellars anyways). Many 1994's stayed open for business for a fairly long time before closing down, only in recent years to start opening back up. Perhaps the first indication that modern techniques had started to change how VP behaves in bottle?

However, I've experienced far more 1994's that have remained more primary than I have with 1985's. Most 1985's are reaching maturity already. How long they stay on that plateau is yet to be seen. That all said, I feel there is no comparison between 1985/1994. 1985's were, and still are by and large, maturing at a far faster rate than 1994's are 30 years in.

[Tom Archer]

VA is something that never goes away and it never "blows off." It only will get worse over time.

Not sure I agree with that. There's quite a cocktail of chemical reactions slowly taking place in wine and the causal compounds that give the VA 'experience' are not immune from involvement. Some of the worst VA symptoms are probably down to the presence of the obnoxious smelling butyric acid; however this might over time react slowly with the ethanol in the wine to form ethyl butyrate - which has a very pleasant aroma..

So whilst I wouldn't put much money on the faulty '85s healing themselves, one should never say never..!

[Andy Velebil]

VA is something that never goes away and it never "blows off." It only will get worse over time.

Not sure I agree with that. There's quite a cocktail of chemical reactions slowly taking place in wine and the causal compounds that give the VA 'experience' are not immune from involvement. Some of the worst VA symptoms are probably down to the presence of the obnoxious smelling butyric acid; however this might over time react slowly with the ethanol in the wine to form ethyl butyrate - which has a very pleasant aroma..

So whilst I wouldn't put much money on the faulty '85s healing themselves, one should never say never..!

This will explain VA in wine, how it gets there and what it does. Basically, once it's there it never goes away. Though you can control it prior to bottling. Once in bottle there is nothing you can do about it.

https://winemakermag.com/676-the-perils ... le-acidity

[Tom Archer]

Basically, once it's there it never goes away.

If that was true, very old bottles would sometimes display the same fault 'signature' as a young one - but as that's not my experience, I feel there must be some evolution..

[Andy Velebil]

Basically, once it's there it never goes away.

If that was true, very old bottles would sometimes display the same fault 'signature' as a young one - but as that's not my experience, I feel there must be some evolution..

It only gets worse...that's the only evolution. VA will "bloom" if the wine is exposed to warm temps. Why sometimes some bottles show more than others of the same wine/vintage. Speak to anyone experienced in the wine industry and they will tell you the same. If you don't control it during fermentation, aging in barrel and prior to bottling, it's a ticking time bomb that you can't reverse.

[Eric Menchen]

This will explain VA in wine, how it gets there and what it does. Basically, once it's there it never goes away. Though you can control it prior to bottling. Once in bottle there is nothing you can do about it.
https://winemakermag.com/676-the-perils ... le-acidity

That was an interesting and reasonable read, but I think it overemphasized acetobacter and acetic acid as the basis of VA. It mentioned that "there are a few rogue yeasts that can do the same thing," but it still seemed to put that in the acetic acid and ethyl acetate field. I find this explanation more complete:
http://waterhouse.ucdavis.edu/whats-in- ... le-acidity

Related, this part of Any's linked article is particularly questionable:

But the bugs also need one other thing to trigger the reaction — air.
“What you have to control is the oxygen,” Bisson said.

Acetobacter needs air, but there are other producers of VA that will gladly work in an anaerobic environment. Brett will work with or without oxygen, and butyric acid is produced from anaerobic fermentation ...

[Andy Velebil]

FYI, I didn't spend a ton of time searching for the best explanation online. It was a good overview to counter Tom's point.

[Tom Archer]

It was a good overview to counter Tom's point.

You didn't counter it.

My key point is that very old faulty bottles do not show the same range of bad characteristics as young ones, which strongly suggests that the maturation process (a complex of slow chemical reactions) also includes reactions of the fault causing chemicals, thereby changing their perceived effect on the wine.

You stated baldly that VA is VA and is there for evermore. The evidence does not support that.

[Eric Menchen]

It was a good overview to counter Tom's point.

You didn't counter it.

I'm with Tom on this as well. The things that make VA are there in the bottle. The chemicals are produced. I don't think that some of those (acetic acid) are subject to further chemical reactions, but some of them could be, and the article doesn't say one way or the other. And the perception of these may change as other reactions take place in the bottle. "Hey, this tastes so much like wet cardboard now that I can barely notice the vomit flavor."

[Andy Velebil]

It was a good overview to counter Tom's point.

You didn't counter it.

My key point is that very old faulty bottles do not show the same range of bad characteristics as young ones, which strongly suggests that the maturation process (a complex of slow chemical reactions) also includes reactions of the fault causing chemicals, thereby changing their perceived effect on the wine.

You stated baldly that VA is VA and is there for evermore. The evidence does not support that.

It's hard to compare something that is consumed in small quantities due to it's old age and rarity and use that as the basis for your argument. Especially when it comes to VA, as this points out, sensory threshold for most is quite high. Like TCA, some are more sensitive to it than others. That doesn't change the fact that it's still there. And everything I've ever read and been told by winemakers is that excess VA perception only gets worse as time goes on.

The sensory threshold for acetic acid is between 0.7 – 1.2 g/L for most individuals, and many are surprised at how challenging it can be to smell acetic acid before the levels rise near legal limits. As defined by the Standards of Identity in the Code of Federal Regulations (27 CFR), “the maximum volatile acidity, calculated as acetic acid and exclusive of sulfur dioxide is 0.14 g/100 mL for red wine (1.4 g/L) and 0.12 g/100 mL (1.2 g/L) for white wines.” There are some allowances for higher maximum VA concentrations for wines produced from unameliorated juice up to 28°Brix.

Your argument is that as a bottle gets old it somehow gets rid of or covers up that VA fault. And that it somehow magically goes away or lessens. However, all studies and decades of research clearly say that VA never goes away. The only way to remove excess amounts of it in wine is by reverse osmosis.

Higher VA wines (>0.7 g/L) are a greater issue, and it may be challenging to blend them away or they may have to be blended away in small quantities over time. The only practical option for wines with a very high VA is the use of reverse osmosis (RO), which can often be contracted out to various wine technology companies. RO can be costly and depending on the company, it may not be a practical solution to minimize ethyl acetate concentrations.

Your comments about why old wines you drink don't show the flaw I'd give these simple answers. 1) You have a very high threshold for perceiving it. 2) Seriously flawed wines are generally not kept for long. People either drink or get rid of them young. So the odds of large quantities of seriously VA flawed wines surviving for 40+ years is quite small.

In Port, VA really seemed to rear it's ugly head in the 1980's and 90's. The question is what led to that period of time being so rife with issues. As I wasn't around Porto cellars back then I don't know and can only speculate. But cleanliness, or lack thereof, is the largest contributor to multiple years of issues from the same producer.

https://psuwineandgrapes.wordpress.com/ ... e-acidity/

[Tom Archer]

It's hard to compare something that is consumed in small quantities due to it's old age and rarity and use that as the basis for your argument.

Probably rarer in the US, but I actively seek out and consume ancient bottles of both port and unfortified wine - I get though roughly fifty bottles a year that are over fifty years old, so have a pretty good take on this.

And everything I've ever read and been told by winemakers is that excess VA perception only gets worse as time goes on.

Remember that wine makers think in terms of weeks and months and many of them very rarely get to drink seriously old wines. At a dinner party in Gaia a couple of years ago I was seated next to a senior wine maker who told me he'd never tasted a '55 before..

Seriously flawed wines are generally not kept for long.

Quite often they get passed over and abandoned in the cellar until the owner dies..

Your argument is that as a bottle gets old it somehow gets rid of or covers up that VA fault.

I think there are chemical reactions that change the nature of the VA to some degree, as there is no consistency with age

[Andy Velebil]

It's hard to compare something that is consumed in small quantities due to it's old age and rarity and use that as the basis for your argument.

Probably rarer in the US, but I actively seek out and consume ancient bottles of both port and unfortified wine - I get though roughly fifty bottles a year that are over fifty years old, so have a pretty good take on this.

And everything I've ever read and been told by winemakers is that excess VA perception only gets worse as time goes on.

Remember that wine makers think in terms of weeks and months and many of them very rarely get to drink seriously old wines. At a dinner party in Gaia a couple of years ago I was seated next to a senior wine maker who told me he'd never tasted a '55 before..

Seriously flawed wines are generally not kept for long.

Quite often they get passed over and abandoned in the cellar until the owner dies..

Your argument is that as a bottle gets old it somehow gets rid of or covers up that VA fault.

I think there are chemical reactions that change the nature of the VA to some degree, as there is no consistency with age

I've offered scientific links that clearly point out that VA doesn't change and it doesn't go away once in bottle. Please link some kind of scientific study or something other than "I've tasted old wine and they don't have issues" therefore old wines somehow magically change VA. So far you've offered up hocus pocus theories based on not one shred of known science.

[Eric Ifune]

I think we are talking about different things here. Classic VA is a stable compound produced by aerophillic bacteria as Andy alludes to. There are other compounds that other organisms can produce in a variety of environments which can be similar in effect. One would need chromatography to figure them all out.

[Eric Menchen]

I think we are talking about different things here. Classic VA is a stable compound produced by aerophillic bacteria as Andy alludes to. There are other compounds that other organisms can produce in a variety of environments which can be similar in effect. One would need chromatography to figure them all out.

From my previous linked article from UCDavis:

Volatile acidity refers to the steam distillable acids present in wine, primarily acetic acid but also lactic, formic, butyric, and propionic acids. Commonly, these acids are measured by Cash Still, though now they can be measured by gas chromatography, HPLC or enzymatic methods. The average level of acetic acid in a new dry table wine is less than 400 mg/L, though levels may range from undetectable up to 3g/L.

[Tom Archer]

I've offered scientific links that clearly point out that VA doesn't change and it doesn't go away once in bottle.

Over weeks and months these chemicals may well appear stable, but over decades? As far as I am aware, the scientific research simply hasn't been done.

something other than "I've tasted old wine and they don't have issues"

They have lots of issues, but the point I'm trying to get through to you is that they have different issues. The lack of continuity has to have a reason.

- Why do you find that so difficult to understand?

This is not some wild untested hypothesis but the product of my own observations - indeed, the question for me is not so much whether VA evolves, but how it evolves and also interacts with the rest of the wine - something I hope to get a better take on as I periodically re-visit cases I know to be affected.

[Andy Velebil]

There is a ton of research on VA that has gone on for decades. It is quite clear that VA doesn't chemically change. It is very stable. The only thing that can happen, if the wine get too warm, it can "bloom" (as it's often referred to as) and it become more noticeable. But from a chemical standpoint it doesn't change over time.

I get what you're trying to say, but this isn't about your perception this is about a chemical and if it chemically changes in bottle. Long term research on this says it doesn't over time. If you would like to link to some type of scientific literature that says it may I'm game to discuss that. But you're trying to say your non-scientific drinking research is better than actual decades long scientific test done in controlled settings by specialists in their fields.

That said, I do think the PERCEPTION of it could SHOW differently because the wine flavors itself could change and affect it. But the VA chemical itself isn't what is changing, it's the flavors within whatever your also drinking. To use a high VA substance like vinegar for an example, if I put one ounce of Vinegar into a 10,000 gallon pool of water you probably won't taste it. If I put that same amount into a can of coke you will. If I put the same amount into a can of water and coke, the vinegar will taste totally differently in each. The vinegar didn't change the substance it was mixed with it simply caused a different perception.

[Tom Archer]

Long term research on this says it doesn't over time.

Do you have a link to that? It would be interesting reading to read a 50 year study of the same wine's chemical evolution, although if they were measuring VA by the Cash Still or Gas Chromatography methods the results would be meaningless, as the processes themselves are only suitable for compounds that are stable enough to be gasified and would probably degrade the complex compounds formed from the VA back to VA itself.