Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
Moderators: Glenn E., Roy Hersh, Andy Velebil
Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
...what’s your preference? What rules of thumb do you use when deciding (a) when not to stopper and (b) differences in decanting profiles/times between the two?
- Eric Ifune
- Posts: 3412
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:02 pm
- Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, United States of America - USA
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
Don't think it makes that much difference, unless in decanter for more than a day or two. The aeration of wine oxygenates far more than just the exposure of a smallish surface area in a decanter. A ship's decanter may do better.
- Andy Velebil
- Posts: 16632
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:49 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, California, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
I generally agree. I only cover the decanter if there is a possibility a fly will get into it (outside). Otherwise I usually just leave to top open.Eric Ifune wrote:Don't think it makes that much difference, unless in decanter for more than a day or two. The aeration of wine oxygenates far more than just the exposure of a smallish surface area in a decanter. A ship's decanter may do better.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
-
- Posts: 5936
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:38 am
- Location: Boston, USA
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
I depends for me whether the port is a one time event or something I plan to drink over a few days. A few days port, I decant as gently as possible and use a cork right away.
Welsh Corgis | F1 |British Cars
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
I did an experiment last month, and my conclusion is that there is a *vast* difference between using a stopper and not. This may be due to a difference in evaporation rates. I encourage others to test and report back their experiences.
Here’s mine:
I opened a bottle of 2011 Fonseca LBV and poured it into two mini ship-style decanters - one I stoppered and the other I didn’t.
I sampled from both decanters every 2 hours for the first 10 hours, then from both decanters randomly over the next 3 days.
I noticed a slight difference even after just 2 hours, when the unstoppered decanter produced a better result (it was more open). By 6 hours, the unstoppered decanter had opened up nicely with better aromas and flavour, but the tannins were much harsher with tons of grip on the teeth & gums that the stoppered decanter didn’t have (it was smooth by comparison).
By 8 hours, the stoppered decanter was the better, because the unstoppered decanter produced an undrinkable rasping dry grip, with a bitter, dry finish.
By 30 hours, the stoppered decanter was still the better - producing a totally different drink that came alive with much calmer drinkable tannins. The aroma of the port in the unstoppered decanter was a pale shadow from the previous day, flavours were muted, and it showed a poor finish which lacked intensity and complexity.
On this occasion, I think the stoppered decanter kept the aromas and flavours fresher for longer with less extreme changes in tasting experience. The unstoppered decanter had the advantage of accelerating aeration, which opened the port quicker, but at the cost of losing a lot of character and playing havoc with the tannins, which was detrimental later on.
Next time, I will run this test blind, which will remove psychology from the mix.
Here’s mine:
I opened a bottle of 2011 Fonseca LBV and poured it into two mini ship-style decanters - one I stoppered and the other I didn’t.
I sampled from both decanters every 2 hours for the first 10 hours, then from both decanters randomly over the next 3 days.
I noticed a slight difference even after just 2 hours, when the unstoppered decanter produced a better result (it was more open). By 6 hours, the unstoppered decanter had opened up nicely with better aromas and flavour, but the tannins were much harsher with tons of grip on the teeth & gums that the stoppered decanter didn’t have (it was smooth by comparison).
By 8 hours, the stoppered decanter was the better, because the unstoppered decanter produced an undrinkable rasping dry grip, with a bitter, dry finish.
By 30 hours, the stoppered decanter was still the better - producing a totally different drink that came alive with much calmer drinkable tannins. The aroma of the port in the unstoppered decanter was a pale shadow from the previous day, flavours were muted, and it showed a poor finish which lacked intensity and complexity.
On this occasion, I think the stoppered decanter kept the aromas and flavours fresher for longer with less extreme changes in tasting experience. The unstoppered decanter had the advantage of accelerating aeration, which opened the port quicker, but at the cost of losing a lot of character and playing havoc with the tannins, which was detrimental later on.
Next time, I will run this test blind, which will remove psychology from the mix.
Last edited by Anthony M on Thu Feb 15, 2018 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Tom Archer
- Posts: 2789
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:09 pm
- Location: Near Saffron Walden, England
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
I always use the stopper..
- Andy Velebil
- Posts: 16632
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:49 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, California, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
From everything I've read on decanting, from scientists, physicists and winemakers, is that the act of pouring it into another vessel (decanter) is where the air molecules attach to the wine molecules and cause changes (the super short non-technical recap of that). Once it's in the decanter very little aeration happens as there is only a small surface area on top that is exposed. Of course shaking it up would increase things and what not. And each time tipping the decanter while pouring it into a glass will aerate it more as well. Thus pouring two large glasses versus 6 smaller ones over the same time period, the latter would cause more aeration and in theory cause more changes to the wine over the same amount of time.
That all said, I think people (That would be all of us wine nerds, me included) over think this at times and it ends of distracting from the enjoyment of the wine.
That all said, I think people (That would be all of us wine nerds, me included) over think this at times and it ends of distracting from the enjoyment of the wine.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
Are you suggesting that once its in the decanter then it’s not going to change much? We all know that’s not true from experience, so what is it you’re trying to say? In my experiment (see above) I used ship-style decanters which have a significant surface area and there seemed to be a vast difference between stoppering and not.Andy Velebil wrote: Once it's in the decanter very little aeration happens as there is only a small surface area on top that is exposed.
I can’t agree more - overthinking things isn’t terribly helpful - especially when all it takes to answer the question is to crack open a bottle and see which method works best. And, by the way, that involves tasting and enjoying the wine, which we both agree is the the whole point of why we’re here.Andy Velebil wrote: That all said, I think people (That would be all of us wine nerds, me included) over think this at times and it ends of distracting from the enjoyment of the wine.
Come on folks - stop pondering, thinking and theorising - get out of your armchairs and test it for yourselves. And, I encourage you to report back your findings here!
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
Ships decanter - is there any other decanter for port? I thought it was de rigueur...Eric Ifune wrote:Don't think it makes that much difference, unless in decanter for more than a day or two. The aeration of wine oxygenates far more than just the exposure of a smallish surface area in a decanter. A ship's decanter may do better.
- Eric Ifune
- Posts: 3412
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:02 pm
- Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, United States of America - USA
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
When you talk about surface area relative to total volume, a regular decanter or carafe will be quite small. A ships decanter is the opposite. Where does one find "mini" ships decanter? Or a magnum one?
- Andy Velebil
- Posts: 16632
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:49 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, California, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
I don't know. I love the smaller sized mini-ship decanters at Quinta do Noval. I know they've been there a long time and that I've never seen any like them anywhere else for sale. I have bought some smaller ones that are not ships decanters from the old Wine Exchange. They had someone who made them by hand and they were really nice and around $25 and not too big.Eric Ifune wrote:When you talk about surface area relative to total volume, a regular decanter or carafe will be quite small. A ships decanter is the opposite. Where does one find "mini" ships decanter? Or a magnum one?
That all said, I've now got enough decanters to last a lifetime so I won't be buying anymore unless I break a bunch. As I bought a bunch of these at one point when a bunch of 'ers were coming over for an offline. The best $17.34 on a decanter I've spent.
https://www.webstaurantstore.com/spiege ... 00188.html
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
- Tom Archer
- Posts: 2789
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:09 pm
- Location: Near Saffron Walden, England
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
The ship design was exactly for that purpose - it is so base heavy that it can't fall over as a ship rolls. However, if you search for Victorian and Georgian decanters, that shape is rarely encountered. A lot of modern decanters are bowl shaped also - try browsing the UK eBay site - they often sell quite cheaply..Ships decanter - is there any other decanter for port? I thought it was de rigueur...
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
I have a range of stoppered mini-ships decanters.Eric Ifune wrote:When you talk about surface area relative to total volume, a regular decanter or carafe will be quite small. A ships decanter is the opposite. Where does one find "mini" ships decanter? Or a magnum one?
This one is amazing value, just £18, good for 250ml, but sadly out of stock
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1
This is a good alternative 250ml, which costs around £75 as a set on Amazon.
https://www.lsa-international.com/produ ... whisky-set
I use this for half-bottles - it sells for £38 on Amazon holds 500ml
https://www.lsa-international.com/produ ... anter-1118
All the above are glass, which is of course preferred for health reasons, because lead crystal is poisonous and the amounts leached when drinking regularly over decades are enough to be concerned.
Caveats out of the way, here’s a lead crystal alternative @£160 with a 428ml capacity:
https://www.waterford.co.uk/lismore-con ... s-decanter
-
- Posts: 5936
- Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:38 am
- Location: Boston, USA
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
I have a couple decanters from early 19th century from the UK and they did not break the bank. I think like $150 each?Tom Archer wrote: However, if you search for Victorian and Georgian decanters, that shape is rarely encountered. A lot of modern decanters are bowl shaped also - try browsing the UK eBay site - they often sell quite cheaply..
Welsh Corgis | F1 |British Cars
-
- Posts: 6342
- Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:48 pm
- Location: Longmont, Colorado, United States of America - USA
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
A small wine shop near me had a small ship's decanter a while back and my wife got me one. The store, however, has since closed.Eric Ifune wrote:When you talk about surface area relative to total volume, a regular decanter or carafe will be quite small. A ships decanter is the opposite. Where does one find "mini" ships decanter? Or a magnum one?
Here's a half-bottle decanter, and the page has a link to a magnum decanter as well:
http://www.bellacor.com/productdetail/b ... 726572.htm
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
I have 18 decanters of varying sizes and shapes.
That being said, I never stopper a decanter.
That being said, I never stopper a decanter.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
- Eric Ifune
- Posts: 3412
- Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:02 pm
- Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, United States of America - USA
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
I've a bunch of decanters as well including some fancy ones from Baccarat and Bohemia. I even have a tregnum sized one. I never use them however and find myself using an old Paul Masson glass carafe.
Re: Decanting - to stopper or not to stopper? That is the question...
Well, the old cut glass ones are equally as beautiful on a display shelf as objets d'art.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com