Port Brainteaser - 2 part question. Bring your A game to pl

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:26 am

This is probably one of the more difficult "brainteasers" I have put on here (excluding the: A Clockwork Orange, enigma from last year).

the good news is that this Brainteaser is about PORT wine!

Of course there will be some of you whom will be forced, when faced with your ethical dilemma, to go straight to Google and torture yourself for a few hours or daze.

I considered a prize, like paying the way for the winner to attend the 1896 dinner, but there is no way for me to know who will be honest and do this without spending the weekend on Google to obtain the answer OR contacting ANY Port producer.

So the prize for this one will be ... the first FTLOP T-shirt and hat to come off the production line ... shipped anywhere in the world by yours truly ... or hand delivered in Portugal or London later this year at the Dow 1896 dinner.

In order to win, an individual must get part A + B correctly. One without the other makes your answers invalid. Ready?

A. Name ALL of the Port Shippers who have ever produced Garrafeira Ports.

I'll give you TWO hints on this: Niepoort

The second hint is: There is more than one other Port producer.

B. Between which specific range of years were these Garrafeiras produced (NOT including Niepoort's? (example a range like 2010-2086, is what I am looking for)

I'll give you TWO hints on this too: This did not occur in the 21st century

The second hint is: They were not produced during the 18th century.

Come up with the answer before 9 a.m. London time (GMT?) on Monday and I'll toss in a 1955 Sandeman or Graham's VP from my cellar. If you speak to a Port producer or use Google, I may not find out ... but you'll still be disqualified. JK.

Let the games begin!

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:39 am

Nice one, Roy

Can I ask for clarification on Part B - is the date range referring to the earliest and latest harvest used to produce the wine or does it refer to the year of release - i.e. the decanting date?

Derek

This is a bad time to be separated from my books

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:46 am

Vintage date, Derek

Jeez, already a loophole. No Google, No talking to Portugal (Port producer/shippers/winemakers/retailer....etc.), but I never did mention "NO BOOKS" so have at it.

Alan C. · Post by **Alan C.** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:43 pm

Oh, well, I wait for you young and gifted types give it a go. Let me know, on the slim chance you cant come up with the answer and I WILL Google my head off. Dont want a prize, want to learn, but before that, it will be fascinating to know if anyone has such information just lying around...in their head!

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:10 pm

Argh!! Roy,

After much digging, I do believe I found part of the answer in my little stack of articles that I have printed out over the past few years, and one written by you.

As for producers:
Niepoort (Duh!)
Ferreira
Real Companhia Velha (Royal Oporto)

As for years, I will have to guess;
1886 to 1977 (which was Niepoort's last vintage sold, although they have younger ones still in Demi-jons)

Sorry, but knowing Roy he has probably hid a bit of the answer in his own question...so my early year is 1886

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:43 pm

Nice job so far Andy!

But in fairness, I mentioned above that I am not including the Niepoort bottling in my "age range" so discount that producer's influence, in your response.

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:20 pm

In that case (excluding Niepoort) I am going to have to take a stab in the dark and say....1933

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:02 pm

Roy Hersh wrote:Nice job so far Andy!

But in fairness, I mentioned above that I am not including the Niepoort bottling in my "age range" so discount that producer's influence, in your response.

Are you excluding Niepoort from the beginning or the end or both?

Derek

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:07 pm

I only used Niepoort at the end...the first year was a guess based on Roy's 2086 (i just removed 200 years 8) ).

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:25 pm

Derek,

Both actually.

Frederick Blais · Post by **Frederick Blais** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:29 pm

I'm late!

If I'm correct Cockburns too did some Garrafeira Port between an approximate range of 1950-1960 but their experiments where never concluent.

Steven Kooij · Post by **Steven Kooij** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:55 pm

Apart from Niepoort:

Ferreira
Ramos Pinto
RCV

Age range: 1815 (Ferreira) to 1890 (RCV) - these were the "extremes" I saw in a store in Portugal...doubt there be older examples, but not sure about "younger" versions...

Steven Kooij · Post by **Steven Kooij** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:58 pm

Oh, should have added: I once came across a Burmester Garrafeira in an auction catalogue, "presumed to be 20th ctry" - but I have not seen the bottle.

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:20 pm

Roy,

So what is the full answer

Shawn Denkler · Post by **Shawn Denkler** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:24 pm

I do not think there can be a definite answer to this one. The producers and the British wine writers have carefully listed vintage port years. But the British and the trade in general have no interest in garrafeirra. Many garrafeirra were produced in the nineteenth century, and no records exist. Noval lost all their records in a fire in 1978. I know for a fact that they produced this style as I own (and just looked at the bottle to verify): Garrafeirra Velha bottled 1941 at Noval with a nice label and strip seal, in a three part molded bottle.

I have a good library of port books and only two mentioned this style. Port, by George Robertson, has a brief mention: "Apart from Garrafeira (which are ports often sold in Portugal that have had a substantial period in bottle)..."

Producers I can document (from my library and personal experience) as having produced Garrafeirra are:

Niepoort (1938 and 1952)
Quinta do Noval (pre 1941)
Ferreirra (1815 and 1834)
Fernando Porto Soares Franco (1834)

Producers I believe to have produced are:
Real Companhia Velha (Royal Oporto)
Burmester

And maybe:
Offley Forrester
Kopke
Cockburn
Sandeman
maybe many more!!!???

Age range 1815 - 1941

I did some brief research in my oldest port books from the 1800s (Vizatelly & Forrester) and found no mention of the word Garrafeirra. It would be nice to know more, hope more people post.

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:03 am

Soon enough ... the answer will be made apparent. While the guesses are still coming in, I will just add that:

It was commonplace for the word Garrafeira to show up on bottles of table wine in Portugal. But, the term Garrafeira also appeared on ancient bottles of Tawny Port to represent the extreme age of the wine within the bottle. However, these bottlings WERE NOT produced using glass demijons and have no resemblance to what we are discussing as true Garrafeira Ports. Some of the Shippers in Shawn's post above, fit into this category, where the use of the term Garrafeira is a misnomer and confuses many a Port buyer.

But I am sure that some of you have already learned this while paging through your Port books.

I will provide one detail just to make this all the more interesting: the oldest bottle of Garrafeira on record was made by Ferreira in 1815. I believe I have a photo somewhere that I took of one of the remaining bottles.

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 1:37 am

As it seems that there is no more action here, the final answer will be provided before Friday ... so get your points across now!

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:51 am

So can I change my dates to:

1815 to 1933

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:27 am

Shawn is partially correct in his post from above.

"I do not think there can be a definite answer to this one." In regards to the last date, I believe you are correct. But in terms of which producers made Garrafeiras, that is something that is known, as is the first date which was mentioned above ... 1815 Ferreira. With that said, I am able to confirm that there was an 1890 Real Companhia Velha Garrafeira. Others listed thereafter are supposedly just old Tawnies. But this can not be carved in stone and therefore, the youngest date that I am positive of is 1890.

Coincidentally, the 1815 is the oldest Port that Dirk has ever tasted, (seen ... or even knows of), that particular 1815 Ferreira Garrafeira. I am holding onto two bottles of 1815 Colheitas in my cellar, the 1815 Ferreira Garrafeira and the predecessor to Real Companhia Velha almost back to Pombaline's era, but it is only a Colheita.

As I have already mentioned, but this is central to points that follow:
It was commonplace for the word Garrafeira to show up on bottles of table wine in Portugal. But, the term Garrafeira also appeared on ancient bottles of Tawny Port to represent the extreme age of the wine within the bottle. However, these bottlings WERE NOT produced using glass demijons and have no resemblance to what we are discussing as true Garrafeira Ports. Some of the Shippers in Shawn's post above, fit into this category, where the use of the term Garrafeira is a misnomer and confuses many a Port buyer.

Shawn wrote:
Noval lost all their records in a fire in 1978. I know for a fact that they produced this style as I own (and just looked at the bottle to verify): Garrafeirra Velha bottled 1941 at Noval with a nice label and strip seal, in a three part molded bottle.

Here is an example of what I am talking about. In checking with the owners of Quinta do Noval, they DO KNOW that 1941 was produced as a Colheita, but not as a Garrafeira as we know it (aged in glass demijons). The good news for Shawn is that it is reputed to be an excellent drink!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

In a discussion on the Garrafeira topic with Dirk Niepoort in June 2006 in Oporto, and I can't think of ANYONE whose opinion I trust more on THIS particular topic, he stated the only producers he is positive produced Garrafeira (in glass) were:

Ferreira
Constantino's
Real Companhia Velha
Niepoort

He told me these were "the only four producers" to his knowledge "that ever made a Garrafeira." He did add recently that Burmester and Ramos Pinto might have been called Garrafeiras but were tawnies with a lot of bottle age before being put on the market. This is not Garrafeira in the classic sense or anything but a label misnomer.

In checking with others in the trade, nobody seems to have knowledge of the Cockburn's folks ever having done a Garrafeira, at least none that were ever commerically released.

By the way, Niepoort produced: 1931, 1933, 1938, 1940, 1948, 1950, 1952, 1967 and Dirk will be bottling the 1977 this coming June. I have only enjoyed the 1931, 1948, 1952 and the "early bird" tasting of the 1977, but will open my recent acquisition of the 1940, this year.

Please don't go by winesearcher.com either, as they are fraught with errors. For example they list the 1964 Niepoort, which I am 100% positive was never made. There are many more examples that can be given of their mis-listings, where the bottles are actually Colheitas. Then again, I have wound up with a number of Colheitas that they've listed as old Vintage Ports which were wrong, but I was ok with a few of these mistakes.

Alan C. · Post by **Alan C.** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:58 am

Roy,
A good tale. But You said...

In order to win, an individual must get part A + B correctly. One without the other makes your answers invalid. Ready?

and...

"I do not think there can be a definite answer to this one." In regards to the last date, I believe you are correct.

There's a depth to you I hadn't seen. You set a question to which there cant be a right answer!
I dont mind, I'm still learning and this was very informative, but very crafty.

Alan