Unknown 1948 vintage Glasgow

[Ed Sutton]

Hello,
I am new here and I’ve never used a forum before so go gently
I have found a few bottles of what I think must be port but there is no label on the bottles. it has been in a cellar for many years...
do any of you clever people know what this might be?
Thank you very much

[Andy Velebil]

A lot of various types of wine was shipped abroad in cask to be bottled by the local shop. Can you post some pictures of the actual bottle itself? That may help in identifying it.

And welcome to the forum!!

[Phil W]

Hi Ed,

This looks to be a bottling of 1948 vintage port by "D. Sandeman & Son Ltd" of Glasgow (David Sandeman and Son) - not, bottling by them.
The only port I'm aware of them bottling in '48 was Taylor, although there could have been others.
In at least '27, '31, and '48 their capsules only show "vintage 19xx" and not the shipper - whereas I've seen "Cockburn 1955" instead of "Vintage 1955" on one of their bottles from '55, with the format otherwise the same, so they may either have bottled more than one shipper that year, or simply decided to include the shipper form then on.
So, I believe there is a good chance that your bottle is a Taylor '48 bottled by D. Sandeman & Son.

[Ed Sutton]

Hi Phil, Andy,

Many thanks to you both

If it would help I can send other pictures

A ‘48 Taylor’s might be accurate as the cellar I referred to (my grandparents) also had/has other Taylor vintages.

Might you know what or how one would value bottles such as this?

Best regards

Ed

[Phil W]

Hi Ed - for bottles as old as this, the way they have been stored and their current condition will hugely affect the likely value. In general, you're wanting to look at the level of the wine within the bottle, the colour of the wine, as well as the condition of the cork/capsule and label. Then based on those aspects, along with any knowledge/evidence of the bottle's previous storage, history and identity, a realistic valuation can be made; generally by looking at current prices from good wine retailers, or for much older/rarer bottles where merchants have no stock or there is so little that those who do tend to have highly inflated prices, looking at the auction prices for recent years is more helpful to gain an indication.

Note also that there is a significant difference determining a value for replacement, versus the likely value you would be likely to receive were you to sell the wines; for example a bottle which typically costs £100 from a good wine retailer might be insured at replacement cost value; whereas selling such a wine as a private individual would likely only net you roughly half that amount (a consequence of taking into account tax, profit and risk and/or auction fees as appropriate).

-

[Eric Menchen]

I think everyone here has given you good information. I don't currently have a pro subscription to wine-searcher.com, nor have I been actively tracking auctions lately. A while back, say ~5 years ago, when I did and was, I put down a note of US$ 800 for 1948 Taylor. The free version of wine-searcher shows a listing for US$1174 in HK today, and £979.97 for one in the UK.

[Glenn E.]

In addition to what Phil and Eric have said about value, do also note that using online sources for valuations of rare and expensive bottles can be wildly inaccurate. You only see prices on the internet for bottles that have not yet sold, which probably means that those prices are too high. So even though as Eric listed you can find a bottle in the UK for £979.97, the actual value is likely less or that bottle would no longer be for sale.

Based on recent auctions that I've participated in and the prices paid for similarly old and rare bottles (though not specifically 1948 Taylor), I suspect that Eric's valuation of $800 from when he was tracking auctions is still pretty accurate. It might be worth $900 now. But the general rule of thumb for private sales is roughly 50% - 60% of retail, which means in a private sale you would probably only get ~$500 for your bottle. Of course, you could always sell your bottle through an auction house as well, but then you'd have fees to pay.

[Phil W]

In addition to Glenn's words of caution, I would add another - both the previous posts have provided some estimates for bottles of Taylor 1948 in excellent condition - however, we do not know the condition of the original poster's bottle, and indeed we don't know it is Taylors - this is my best guess on available information, but if being sold it would be Unknown 1948 vintage port bottled by D. Sandeman and Son Glasgow.

I had originally held off from providing an actual potential value for the original poster's bottles since we do not yet have enough further information on condition and provenance (level, colour, storage), as well as trying to provide a more general reply on how to value bottles generally as it sounds as though he may have many more to value. However, since some estimates have been provided, I think there is some risk that Ed might read the above replies and assume an unrealistically high value for this bottle, since it is not *known* to be Taylor, and because we do not know sufficient of its condition (it may be excellent, but it may not). Of course, if you have more than one of these, and are prepared to open one then that can be used to prove the identity of the others, likely thereby increasing the overall price you might obtain in selling, depending how many you own.

Therefore, as further guide I would highlight that an Unknown 1948 Vintage Port (such as this, even though we think it could well be Taylor) will not sell for the same price as a known-to-be Taylor 1948. As such therefore, perhaps a better indication of the likely value would be to look at the last time Unknown 1948 Vintage port bottled by D. Sandeman appeared at auction, which I'm last aware of in 2018, where one lot of four bottles in excellent condition sol for £800 hammer, i.e. £200/bt. Including all fees, this will have cost the buyer around £250/bt, and the seller will have received around £170/bt from the sale after all fees. Please note how much lower these are than the standard retail prices for Taylor 1948 and temper your expectations accordingly. Also note that if the bottle is not in excellent condition, that would reduce the price further - though prices have risen slightly at auction over the last three years also. Hope that helps set some realistic expectations.

[Andy Velebil]

Hi Phil, Andy,

Many thanks to you both

If it would help I can send other pictures

A ‘48 Taylor’s might be accurate as the cellar I referred to (my grandparents) also had/has other Taylor vintages.

Might you know what or how one would value bottles such as this?

Best regards

Ed

Please post more pictures of the bottle. It may greatly help in giving a better answer to your question regarding value.

That said, and I can't stress this enough, a lot of wine was shipped in cask and bottled locally back then. While most likely Port, it could be anything. And without knowing who the producer is, the valuation will take a big hit and it will be worth a fraction of a well stored and from a well regarded producer.

[Ed Sutton]

Hello everyone, thank you all very much for this information which is very helpful and informative.

I attach further photos of both bottles (I have two of these) - both look in similar condition, with just about legible text on the top of the cork as you can just about read but no label on the side of either bottle and certainly no idea what type / producer it is.

I’m afraid I have yet to work out how to get alerts that there has been a new post on the forum so I apologise for the delay in replying as I have only looked again this afternoon!

This is post 1 of 2 as It seems I can only add 3 attachments at once. I will look at liquid level and colour in the next post.

The 3 photos here are of 1 of the bottles.

[Ed Sutton]

The levels are:
- 1 bottle is high up the neck
- 1 bottle is right at the bottom of the neck where the bottle shape starts to bulge out
Hopefully you can see this in the photo.

The 2 other photos here are of bottle 2.

The colour is very difficult to identify/for me to see - holding the bottle up to the light I think it looks a very pale rose/red but difficult to say and describe.

These bottles have been in a family cellar for the last 50-60 years at least when they were acquired from a respected wine merchant (I might be able to find their details somewhere).
Alongside these two bottles are some, easier to identify, ‘66 Fonseca and ‘63 Taylors for port.
The cellar is underground and thus a very constant temperature around 12-13degrees. The bottles have all been stored on their sides for all this time in darkness.

There is also some Madeira (you may see I have posted 1 odd bottle in the other forum/thread there dedicated to Madeira’s) I am currently having them valued by an auction house.

Finally there is also some vintage wine as well but I don’t think that is too relevant to this thread.

Thanks again

Ed