What type of barrel is port typically aged in?
Moderators: Glenn E., Roy Hersh, Andy Velebil
-
Tim Swaback
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:41 am
- Location: Hastings, Minnesota, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
What type of barrel is port typically aged in?
Im just curious as to what type of barrel port is generally aged in. What type of toast is used? Med, heavy?
There is no easy answer to your question, which is why nobody has answered you. I waited to see who would be the first. Hopefully now, others will jump in.
There are different kinds of containers that Port is aged in. It truly is up to the individual producer or shipper to decide what works best for them. It also depends on whether you are asking about Vintage Port, Tawny Port, or a variety of LBV, Ruby Reserve etc. Each house chooses their own style of container. The majority choose oak though, due to the beauty of its tighter grain which Port makers prefer.
In the Douro, especially for their very basic Ports where fruit retention is of primary concern, some producers prefer the use of large stainless steel vats or cement tanks too (outdoors they are called "boobas" because they are shaped remarkably like a perfect breast and painted white), while others choose to use large wooden vats, while others still, utilize smaller oak casks (or "pipes") which also vary in size.
There used to be a differentiation between a Port pipe in the Douro which still runs about 550 liters from what I have seen just about everywhere. IF 100% full, these would yield close to 61 cases apiece. The reality is quite different, but I'll explain why in a few moments.
In Vila Nova de Gaia, where many of the big name Shippers, (Taylor, Sandeman, Graham, Niepoort, Dow, Croft, Cockburn's, Ramos Pinto etc.) which age Port wine in their ancient Lodges, there is a different kind of small oak cask which is called, "a Lodge pipe" and these contain 534 liters or about 59 cases with some holding as much as 600 liters or almost 67 cases. The smallest of these type of pipes, are just slightly smaller and they're not easy to discern from what is up in the Douro and in some lodges ... which use the 550 liter pipes. Confused yet? Well then, think of a "hogshead" pipe, which is about half the size of a Lodge pipe.
You can find the pipes or very large wooden vats with volumes that are in the thousands or tens of thousands of liters, right on up to the largest one I've ever seen which held 133,568 liters (Warre) the equivalent to 14.840 cases or 2.5 million glasses of Port. These are impressive to see or stand next to ... especially when looking at an entire room filled with these monsters that could take up almost as much space as half a (NFL) football field.
So, the differences in the types of wood can be great. Some companies use well-known French cooperage names like the legendary Alliers or Tronçais, the latter of which is known for having the very tightest grain, (especially for the Douro red wines!) and some like Quinta do Crasto have recently restocked their entire storage facility with French oak beauties. Others have Italian Chestnut barrels, while others use other woods that they've owned for decades.
The huge wooden vats I mentioned are "built in place" with VERY natural methods, including flour and water made into a paste to keep the thin reeds of wood in place, like more modern glue. Others use oak from the north of Portugal, while I have seen some that use Slovenian oak and barrels made from South American hardwoods like Brazillian Mahogany. Others use a smattering of American oak, but this I personally do not understand! Anyway, oak in most wines is a "seasoning" where in Port it is used as a neutral vessel, in most cases. In Tawny and Colheita production, the attention paid to the wood flavors and wood tannins is more of a concern because of the extended extraction due to longer contact ... sometimes for decades or even for a half century.
None of the best PORT (at least that I have ever seen) is made using new oak. The Shippers want NO influence of new oak in their top Ports so they store cheap ruby inside to "season" the casks and vats until they become neutral. So the "toast" level that you mention is a non-factor in Port wine, but important for Douro wines.
It is important to remember that the smaller the oak cask, the faster the Port develop faster due to the increased rate of evaporation. This is the reason why I mentioned above that the small Lodge pipe would not hold the full amount it could. A typical Shipper loses 2% of the wine to the "angel's share" better known as evaporation. This can be slightly controlled in places that are newly constructed and have ways of dealing with temperature and humidity issues. But in Gaia the typical loss is 2%, although this too is dependent on many factors. Those Lodges like Sandeman which are closer to the River, lose less to evaporation and have casks that mature just a tad less quickly than say a shipper that is up the hill a few blocks. Even the placement of the casks in a stack matters. The higher the cask, the more quickly it will mature.
But here we are heading into inexact science and pontificating does no good. I learn the most from the winemakers, blenders and oenologists that I trust the most. It is a fascinating topic and the cooperage business in Gaia is a dying art compared to what it once was. Yes, there are certainly some companies (as in Madeira too) that maintain a small staff of highly skilled artisan coopers, whose families have been in that trade, in some cases for centuries. They come in to build or remove the old and huge wooden vats, tanks and casks. But their main job is to repair them or deconstruct them nowadays. The glory years of the cooperage business in Gaia was about sixty years ago, (and earlier) when the larger casks (the extra-strong chestnut, was a preferred wood type for this purpose) were used to transport Port from the Quintas down to Gaia in the Barcos Rabellos.
Are you sorry you asked?
There are different kinds of containers that Port is aged in. It truly is up to the individual producer or shipper to decide what works best for them. It also depends on whether you are asking about Vintage Port, Tawny Port, or a variety of LBV, Ruby Reserve etc. Each house chooses their own style of container. The majority choose oak though, due to the beauty of its tighter grain which Port makers prefer.
In the Douro, especially for their very basic Ports where fruit retention is of primary concern, some producers prefer the use of large stainless steel vats or cement tanks too (outdoors they are called "boobas" because they are shaped remarkably like a perfect breast and painted white), while others choose to use large wooden vats, while others still, utilize smaller oak casks (or "pipes") which also vary in size.
There used to be a differentiation between a Port pipe in the Douro which still runs about 550 liters from what I have seen just about everywhere. IF 100% full, these would yield close to 61 cases apiece. The reality is quite different, but I'll explain why in a few moments.
In Vila Nova de Gaia, where many of the big name Shippers, (Taylor, Sandeman, Graham, Niepoort, Dow, Croft, Cockburn's, Ramos Pinto etc.) which age Port wine in their ancient Lodges, there is a different kind of small oak cask which is called, "a Lodge pipe" and these contain 534 liters or about 59 cases with some holding as much as 600 liters or almost 67 cases. The smallest of these type of pipes, are just slightly smaller and they're not easy to discern from what is up in the Douro and in some lodges ... which use the 550 liter pipes. Confused yet? Well then, think of a "hogshead" pipe, which is about half the size of a Lodge pipe.
You can find the pipes or very large wooden vats with volumes that are in the thousands or tens of thousands of liters, right on up to the largest one I've ever seen which held 133,568 liters (Warre) the equivalent to 14.840 cases or 2.5 million glasses of Port. These are impressive to see or stand next to ... especially when looking at an entire room filled with these monsters that could take up almost as much space as half a (NFL) football field.
So, the differences in the types of wood can be great. Some companies use well-known French cooperage names like the legendary Alliers or Tronçais, the latter of which is known for having the very tightest grain, (especially for the Douro red wines!) and some like Quinta do Crasto have recently restocked their entire storage facility with French oak beauties. Others have Italian Chestnut barrels, while others use other woods that they've owned for decades.
The huge wooden vats I mentioned are "built in place" with VERY natural methods, including flour and water made into a paste to keep the thin reeds of wood in place, like more modern glue. Others use oak from the north of Portugal, while I have seen some that use Slovenian oak and barrels made from South American hardwoods like Brazillian Mahogany. Others use a smattering of American oak, but this I personally do not understand! Anyway, oak in most wines is a "seasoning" where in Port it is used as a neutral vessel, in most cases. In Tawny and Colheita production, the attention paid to the wood flavors and wood tannins is more of a concern because of the extended extraction due to longer contact ... sometimes for decades or even for a half century.
None of the best PORT (at least that I have ever seen) is made using new oak. The Shippers want NO influence of new oak in their top Ports so they store cheap ruby inside to "season" the casks and vats until they become neutral. So the "toast" level that you mention is a non-factor in Port wine, but important for Douro wines.
It is important to remember that the smaller the oak cask, the faster the Port develop faster due to the increased rate of evaporation. This is the reason why I mentioned above that the small Lodge pipe would not hold the full amount it could. A typical Shipper loses 2% of the wine to the "angel's share" better known as evaporation. This can be slightly controlled in places that are newly constructed and have ways of dealing with temperature and humidity issues. But in Gaia the typical loss is 2%, although this too is dependent on many factors. Those Lodges like Sandeman which are closer to the River, lose less to evaporation and have casks that mature just a tad less quickly than say a shipper that is up the hill a few blocks. Even the placement of the casks in a stack matters. The higher the cask, the more quickly it will mature.
But here we are heading into inexact science and pontificating does no good. I learn the most from the winemakers, blenders and oenologists that I trust the most. It is a fascinating topic and the cooperage business in Gaia is a dying art compared to what it once was. Yes, there are certainly some companies (as in Madeira too) that maintain a small staff of highly skilled artisan coopers, whose families have been in that trade, in some cases for centuries. They come in to build or remove the old and huge wooden vats, tanks and casks. But their main job is to repair them or deconstruct them nowadays. The glory years of the cooperage business in Gaia was about sixty years ago, (and earlier) when the larger casks (the extra-strong chestnut, was a preferred wood type for this purpose) were used to transport Port from the Quintas down to Gaia in the Barcos Rabellos.
Are you sorry you asked?
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
-
Tim Swaback
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:41 am
- Location: Hastings, Minnesota, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
On the contrary I am very glad that i asked. I looked all over for information on this and found nil. I had read that the "oaking" of port was for an entirely different purpose than for "oaking" a wine. I gather that the purpose of using oak in port production is to have a semi-permeable membrane for the port to concentrate in. I'm sure that with modern technology they could come up with a more economical way of doing this rather than oak, but I would have to assume that the oak imparts some flavor into the port even though they claim neutrality.
The purpose of this question is that I am attempting to create my own port. I realize that this may be heresy to some, but to me its a enjoyable experiment. Something to pass the time if you will. Having not the funds for an oak barrel, I'm looking for alternatives to this necessary step in the process.
I was considering getting some oak cubes to impart the oak flavor, but as I delve deeper into this, i realize that the oak flavor isn't the purpose of the process.
End result and final conclusion: None
The purpose of this question is that I am attempting to create my own port. I realize that this may be heresy to some, but to me its a enjoyable experiment. Something to pass the time if you will. Having not the funds for an oak barrel, I'm looking for alternatives to this necessary step in the process.
I was considering getting some oak cubes to impart the oak flavor, but as I delve deeper into this, i realize that the oak flavor isn't the purpose of the process.
End result and final conclusion: None
Tim,
I am going to move this thread to the Basics Forum, because it is not only educational, but a great read and will help others looking to learn. I wish there were more thought provoking threads like this one on the FORUM.
This is the kind of minute detail that I love about Port related topics and the deeper I have delved the more I realize how little I know. The dedication of time and learning about these exquisite details is what drives me to love Port and truth be told, for this geek ... EVERY BIT as much as the drink itself. I know that sounds crazy, but true.
I enjoy recounting this anecdote and appologize if I've told it here before:
In 1994, when making my first (and prolonged) visit to augment my Port education in Oporto/Gaia & the Douro, I spent a day with James Symington. First at the Lodges in Gaia and then at a lunch at the Factory House. At this time I was such a fanatical student of Port, (I wish I knew half of the details that were then in my brain!!!) that I knew birth years and specific DATES of birth of his parents and ancestors (not to mention his kids). He thought I was a very odd duck and probably told someone that I was a stalker, because how does someone know your grandmother's birthday? Trust me, I knew far more minutia then, than now.
Anyway, to make a long story short about the wood issue ...
You are absolutely correct that the oak serves as nothing more than a porous vessel, which lends Port a place to hang its hat for a few years. Tawny Port is a different animal and with this species of Port, the wood comes far more into play as the hat is hanging on the hook, for a prolonged stay.
Could a less expensive method be found? It is certainly possible and with cement and stainless steel, it is obvious that attempts have been made to experiment. The thing about oak is that it is very natural, easy to work with and the space and environment can be controlled. Although we view the cost as prohibitive for the types of home trials you've described, for a Shipper it is ultimately just built into the raw cost of the juice within the bottle we purchase.
There are rare instances where I have found ANY perceptible nuances of oak in VP, but I almost view these as "flaws" as there should not be any oak noticeable in a Vintage Port. If I found it in an LBV or Reserve Ruby for example, I would not be as alarmed, but it is certainly not a quality that I would ever want intentionally added to these Ports.
There have been studies done by two specific producers of Port (which I am aware of) that have found almost no difference between the flavor profiles of Port which have been immersed in wood vs. stainless steel and only a very slim difference in the rate of maturation. I hope this helps.
Good luck with your port-making project and please do let us know how it turns out.
I am going to move this thread to the Basics Forum, because it is not only educational, but a great read and will help others looking to learn. I wish there were more thought provoking threads like this one on the FORUM.
This is the kind of minute detail that I love about Port related topics and the deeper I have delved the more I realize how little I know. The dedication of time and learning about these exquisite details is what drives me to love Port and truth be told, for this geek ... EVERY BIT as much as the drink itself. I know that sounds crazy, but true.
I enjoy recounting this anecdote and appologize if I've told it here before:
In 1994, when making my first (and prolonged) visit to augment my Port education in Oporto/Gaia & the Douro, I spent a day with James Symington. First at the Lodges in Gaia and then at a lunch at the Factory House. At this time I was such a fanatical student of Port, (I wish I knew half of the details that were then in my brain!!!) that I knew birth years and specific DATES of birth of his parents and ancestors (not to mention his kids). He thought I was a very odd duck and probably told someone that I was a stalker, because how does someone know your grandmother's birthday? Trust me, I knew far more minutia then, than now.
Anyway, to make a long story short about the wood issue ...
You are absolutely correct that the oak serves as nothing more than a porous vessel, which lends Port a place to hang its hat for a few years. Tawny Port is a different animal and with this species of Port, the wood comes far more into play as the hat is hanging on the hook, for a prolonged stay.
Could a less expensive method be found? It is certainly possible and with cement and stainless steel, it is obvious that attempts have been made to experiment. The thing about oak is that it is very natural, easy to work with and the space and environment can be controlled. Although we view the cost as prohibitive for the types of home trials you've described, for a Shipper it is ultimately just built into the raw cost of the juice within the bottle we purchase.
There are rare instances where I have found ANY perceptible nuances of oak in VP, but I almost view these as "flaws" as there should not be any oak noticeable in a Vintage Port. If I found it in an LBV or Reserve Ruby for example, I would not be as alarmed, but it is certainly not a quality that I would ever want intentionally added to these Ports.
There have been studies done by two specific producers of Port (which I am aware of) that have found almost no difference between the flavor profiles of Port which have been immersed in wood vs. stainless steel and only a very slim difference in the rate of maturation. I hope this helps.
Good luck with your port-making project and please do let us know how it turns out.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
-
Tim Swaback
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:41 am
- Location: Hastings, Minnesota, United States of America - USA
- Contact:
I find it very interesting, but not at all surprising that oak has kept its place in port. Since it is not a "party" drink (vodka) I suppose it only makes sence that it has remained relatively pure to its roots. I think one of the reasons I love port, like you, is because of its backstory. There is so much to learn about it that I dont know if I could ever get bored with it. I wish I had the money to try something that is a true amazing VP, but alas, being 23 has its drawbacks. Hopefully I can pick up a bottle of two of some suggested VP's that are in my price range and at least get an idea of what this is all about.
On another note, what would you think is an average specific gravity of a finished port, aged and poured for consumption? I think i will be stopping mine at around 1.030-1.040, but im not really sure if this is the correct sweetness or not. This is probably better suited for an aditional thread, but it does have the same educational theme as the rest of this one, though not involving port barrel aging. Oh well.
On another note, what would you think is an average specific gravity of a finished port, aged and poured for consumption? I think i will be stopping mine at around 1.030-1.040, but im not really sure if this is the correct sweetness or not. This is probably better suited for an aditional thread, but it does have the same educational theme as the rest of this one, though not involving port barrel aging. Oh well.
-
Frederick Blais
- Posts: 2744
- Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:07 am
- Location: Porto, Portugal
Interesting toppic, sorry I did not answer earlier, I was not available this week-end.
I did ask the provenance of the cask and barrels to some port producers when I did visit them in 2004. As Roy stated, the provenance varries a lot. Cask where all from oak as where the vats where from diverse wood type and countries. Though, one common answer : the best barrels/vats they can find today are the old Burgundy ones. Burgundy producers keeps their barrels/vats for 6-8 years before replacing them as to many other regions they replace them each year or after 3 years average. This is exactly what Port producers are looking for because after 8 years the barrels have no flavours left to give.
I did ask the provenance of the cask and barrels to some port producers when I did visit them in 2004. As Roy stated, the provenance varries a lot. Cask where all from oak as where the vats where from diverse wood type and countries. Though, one common answer : the best barrels/vats they can find today are the old Burgundy ones. Burgundy producers keeps their barrels/vats for 6-8 years before replacing them as to many other regions they replace them each year or after 3 years average. This is exactly what Port producers are looking for because after 8 years the barrels have no flavours left to give.
Living the dream and now working for a Port company
-
Todd Pettinger
- Posts: 2022
- Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:59 am
- Location: Sherwood Park, Alberta, Canada
So then, I also have a question, as aged Tawny Port seems to be my personal favourite, until, like Tim, I age myself and obtain some financial resources to be able to begin exploring more of the Vintage Ports (actually, exploring ANY at this point would be a step in the right direction).Roy Hersh wrote: You are absolutely correct that the oak serves as nothing more than a porous vessel, which lends Port a place to hang its hat for a few years. Tawny Port is a different animal and with this species of Port, the wood comes far more into play as the hat is hanging on the hook, for a prolonged stay.
Back to the oak - what types of oak casks are used for the Aged Tawnies, where they want the oak to impart a flavour and colour to the wine? The neutral oak or chestnut used in VP seems to be as a vessel only. If a guy wanted to atte,pt his own aged Tawny, what kind of oak would he be looking for?
I look to you, the experts for advice as I am very new to the game and would like to attempt my own aged Tawny.
Thanks!
Todd