Intro and a few queries

Rich Greenberg · Post by **Rich Greenberg** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:45 am

Greetings, all. I have been lurking here for a while, soaking up some of the great information and dialogue. I am an avid wine consumer (mostly reds, primarily US) with significantly less experience with the wide variety of port that is available. My prior experiences with port have been "occasion" bottles (graduations, anniversaries, etc.) of vintage port that my dad has cellared for some time, that I have found to be delicious (no real surprise there.) I have also had the occasional glass of port more along the lines of Graham's Five Grapes, which I enjoyed considerably less than the vintage ports (again, no surprise there either.)

Having acquired a free-standing wine cabinet in the past year, I am now at a point where I would like to add port as an area of exploration, and I would love to get some input from the assembled group here on the following:

1. What readily available recommendations would you make for someone who wants to try a variety of port to determine differences in styles, types, likes/dislikes, etc?? Primarily, I'm thinking of what is in the "daily drinker" category that is in the $20-40US range, and readily available in the States.

2. I would also like to sample some vintage port that is ready to drink now, again, with an eye toward getting familiar with my likes/dislikes, style variances among producers, etc. I won't put a dollar value on this one as these are obviously going to be more expensive, but to narrow it down, which two producers of which two vintages from 1970-1989 would you throw into the mix?

3. I have some occasions that I would like to mark with bottles of port. Which producers would you recommend as long-term keepers in these vintages: 1997 (my wedding), 2000 (first child), 2003 (second child)?

4. I live in the SF Bay Area (on the Peninsula), do you have any local retailers whom you recommend? I know K&L and Beltramo's well. What about recommended web retailers?

I know that some of these questions are very broad, and that the port world is vast. I'm sure that this will be a continuous adventure of exploration and discovery as wine has been, and I vey much look forward to your input to get me started on some directions.

Also, quick thank you to Roy for this site and forum. I have much more exploration and reading to do here, and am quite happy to have found such a place.

Thanks again for your insight and input!

Rich G.

Todd Pettinger · Post by **Todd Pettinger** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:16 am

I have also had the occasional glass of port more along the lines of Graham's Five Grapes, which I enjoyed considerably less than the vintage ports (again, no surprise there either.)

Welcome out of "lurk" status Rich! :) We'll even forgive you on your very first post for mistaking Six Grapes for five!

1. What readily available recommendations would you make for someone who wants to try a variety of port to determine differences in styles, types, likes/dislikes, etc?? Primarily, I'm thinking of what is in the "daily drinker" category that is in the $20-40US range, and readily available in the States.

I asked the same question in another post- you can check out some of the answers there as well. I like the Six Grapes and as I mentioned in that post, the Graham's 2000 LBV is a drink I could likely have 300 out of 365 days of the year and be quite content. I'm trying to find others as well to add to the line-up of dailys.

2. I would also like to sample some vintage port that is ready to drink now, again, with an eye toward getting familiar with my likes/dislikes, style variances among producers, etc. I won't put a dollar value on this one as these are obviously going to be more expensive, but to narrow it down, which two producers of which two vintages from 1970-1989 would you throw into the mix?

Impossible to pick two at this stage in MY VP-consuming life as I have only tried 4, the regulars will chime in with their favourites. I have found decent deals on Smith-Woodhouse, Gould Campbell and Ferreira on some of the "older" VPs so these might be a starting point, from a cost-containment perspective.

3. I have some occasions that I would like to mark with bottles of port. Which producers would you recommend as long-term keepers in these vintages: 1997 (my wedding), 2000 (first child), 2003 (second child)?

My first born was in 2003 as well and speaking with a producer at a recent tasting, he told me that pretty much ALL of the 2003s will show well - he alluded it was the same as trying to choose between a Ferrari and a Lamboughini. One thing to keep in mind when choosing your 2003 is the age at which you expect to consume (or if the ports from 2000/2003 are for the kids, when THEY will consume them.) Some of the more traditionaly, huge producers (Taylor, Fonseca, Niepoort, Graham's) seem to only start to become mature after 40-50 years where as many of the smaller players may show well in 17-22 years, with 30 years perhaps being a bit of a stretch goal.
(I am sure a lot of the more experienced guys can chime in here on that note - myself, I have not tried any VP that is over 20 years old yet)

4. I live in the SF Bay Area (on the Peninsula), do you have any local retailers whom you recommend? I know K&L and Beltramo's well. What about recommended web retailers?

I am going to be in Cupertino on business at the end of the month and I asked a similar question. One place that I found online (but they are a retail store) is Weimax (http://www.weimax.com) Seem to have a pretty decent selection of all types of Port. I think they are closer to you (in SF core) than to where I will be in Cupertino though! :) And they are closed Sunday, which is the day I have the most free time to explore the local scene, so likely I won't be making it out to them.

Again - welcome to the forum and looking forward to seeing/hearing from you again!

Todd

Rich Greenberg · Post by **Rich Greenberg** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:05 pm

Thanks for the reply, Todd. Perhaps I didn't like it because it was missing a grape!!

I missed your other post, checked it out and took some notes.

Good thoughts on seeking out some of the older vintage offerings from houses other than the "big boys" to gather some information. It won't be every day that I spring for a '63 Taylor or some such!

I'll try to post notes back here as I explore, and look forward to learning and sharing with the folks on the forum.

Oh, and thanks for reminding me about Weimax. I have stopped in there on occasion for the odd bottle.

Rich

Alex K. · Post by **Alex K.** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:13 pm

Rich,

Welcome to the forum, it's a nice place with good people on board and a lot of knowledge.

1. What readily available recommendations would you make for someone who wants to try a variety of port to determine differences in styles, types, likes/dislikes, etc?? Primarily, I'm thinking of what is in the "daily drinker" category that is in the $20-40US range, and readily available in the States.

Go for traditional/unfiltered LBVs, especially Warre's and Quinta do Noval, both of which will be available to drink and more Vintage than Ruby in comparison with other LBVs. Single Quintas will not be ready for the most part unless you unearth some 1987s from somewhere. Tawny 10year-old may be a way to go, but it is completely different in style from Vintage.

2. I would also like to sample some vintage port that is ready to drink now, again, with an eye toward getting familiar with my likes/dislikes, style variances among producers, etc. I won't put a dollar value on this one as these are obviously going to be more expensive, but to narrow it down, which two producers of which two vintages from 1970-1989 would you throw into the mix?

Fonseca 1970 and 1977 are absolutely fantastic Ports but need a fair amount of time in the decanter before trying. Dark and mysterious this is the biggest, heaviest of Ports.

Martinez 1985 is utterly perfect now, light and bright... errrmmm... the 1994 is good as well.

3. I have some occasions that I would like to mark with bottles of port. Which producers would you recommend as long-term keepers in these vintages: 1997 (my wedding), 2000 (first child), 2003 (second child)?

Did you plan these events around Port vintages? Extraordinary timing I have to say. 1997 is generally considered a 'Good' vintage whilst 2000 and 2003 'Very Good', all widely declared. Find a style that you like and take your pick you lucky git.

4. I live in the SF Bay Area (on the Peninsula), do you have any local retailers whom you recommend? I know K&L and Beltramo's well. What about recommended web retailers?

Nope

Rich Greenberg · Post by **Rich Greenberg** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:23 pm

KB:

Did you plan these events around Port vintages? Extraordinary timing I have to say. 1997 is generally considered a 'Good' vintage whilst 2000 and 2003 'Very Good', all widely declared. Find a style that you like and take your pick you lucky git.

I should have been more clear. These vintages are the closest declared vintage to the events in question. I did, indeed, get married in 1997, but the kids were born in 1999 and 2001 respectively (a third in 2005...)

My dad put down a bottle of port for each of his kids from the closest vintage to their birth year, and opened it with us on our 21st birthdays. I wish he had waited until I was 30, as I didn't appreciate the '70 Taylor much.

I am modifying his approach by putting down two bottles (one for me, one for each child), and I will likely not open them until they are 30 (which, depending on the port, may be at the very beginning of the maturity window anyway.)

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll poke around and see what I can find.

Rich

Tom Archer · Post by **Tom Archer** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:31 pm

Welcome to the forum!

There's not a lot to add to what others have contributed, but these thoughts might assist:

1) Decide what you really like. Some people like young vintage ports (which are not always cheaper!) - others prefer old wine that is fully softened. Some prefer Vintage, some love old Tawnies, and many like LBV's - a half way house - and often good value for money.

Most importantly, price and personal preference rarely run hand in hand.

2) Don't assume that famous names are always better than names you may never have heard of - there are many small producers (and some not so small) who produce very good wine at good prices.

3) Don't be afraid to report your findings when you open a bottle, and don't be afraid to experiment - pleasant surprises are part of the rich tapestry here!

4) Above all, ENJOY - don't be afraid to open a bottle. Too many bottles are set aside for special occasions that never arise..

..so drink and be damned!

Tom

Mike McCune · Post by **Mike McCune** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:59 pm

Welcome Rich !!

1997 - Niepoort
2000 - Fonseca
2003 - Croft (The big guns will need much more time)

These shoudn't break your bank. Wine-searcher Pro should help.

Post by **Andy Velebil** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:33 pm

Rich welcome to FTLOP,

THe others have already gave sound advice and I just wanted to stress what Tom wrote.

2) Don't assume that famous names are always better than names you may never have heard of - there are many small producers (and some not so small) who produce very good wine at good prices.

and

4) Above all, ENJOY - don't be afraid to open a bottle. Too many bottles are set aside for special occasions that never arise..

Please do report back with your thoughts (good OR bad) on what you've drank.

Jay Powers · Post by **Jay Powers** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:17 pm

Rich

4. I live in the SF Bay Area (on the Peninsula), do you have any local retailers whom you recommend? I know K&L and Beltramo's well. What about recommended web retailers?

Try The Wine Club on Harrison in SF, a nice store which often has a lot of stuff which is not reflected on their website. In particular this is a good spot to look for Niepoort. Another nice store is The Wine House in SF, a fair selection of port. As was mentioned Wiemax is very nice for single bottle purchases, with a surprising variety given the size of their space devoted to port. They are pretty good for dry reds as well.

For the web try The Wine Exchange and 20-20 wines, both in SoCA which will minimize shipping. Vinfolio in SF as well although prices vary between very fair and not-so-good (usually a smaller selection as well). Adventures in Wine (located in Daly City) is nice for Port, and although not a retail location you can easily drop in and have a look at the wines before you commit if you play nice on the phone. I recently got a very nice deal (for the US) on a case of 77 Gould Campbell there. And finally there's Golden West which is an internet operation but is based in SF and you can pick up the wines there if you like.

For your 1999 kids birthyear you might try the 1999 Quinta do Vesuvio if you want to hit the year right on the head....a pretty nice wine to my taste and not terribly expensive. 2001 is a little tougher (you could always go Sauterne), but I'm sure someone will have a Port suggestion for that year.

And welcome to the forum!

Jay

Al B. · Post by **Al B.** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:07 am

Rich

Welcome to the forum and to the worl of port. Your first question is the sort of question that I love being asked, as I can let my imagination run wild. So, here goes:

. What readily available recommendations would you make for someone who wants to try a variety of port to determine differences in styles, types, likes/dislikes, etc?? Primarily, I'm thinking of what is in the "daily drinker" category that is in the $20-40US range, and readily available in the States.

I would say you should cover a range of styles first and once you have found a style (or styles) that you like, you can explore those further. You already know you like mature vintage port so styles I would suggest you try are:
Tawny - try a 10 year old and a 20 year old. Andy V rates the Niepoort 10 year old but I am not sure where he gets it in California. If you like these then explore more of the producers as you come across bottles. Also, if you like this style then try a colheita (a single vintage tawny) but be aware that young and old colheitas are as different as young and old vintage ports

Late Bottled Vintage - try both a filtered and an unfiltered version (the latter are also known as traditional). The ones you'll find in the shops will all be of roughly the same age so this is a chance to try different producers if you decide that you like the style. Its also worth noting that although unfiltered LBVs are half the price of Vintage Port, they are most certainly not half the quality and will age well in the bottle for many years (I have had two 40+ year old LBVs in the last 18 months and they were both magnificent).

Ruby and Reserve Ports - although you didn't enjoy Graham's Six Grapes as much as the Vintage Port that you have drunk, you also don't say that you dislike it. Ruby port is made to be drunk while young and full of fruit not intended to be a complex and thoughtful drink. Try a few different Ruby Ports and see if there is one that hits the spot for you.

Vintage Ports - most vintage ports in the band you have suggested will be Single Quinta Vintage Ports (SQVP) and will normally be released onto the market at around 10 years of age. While they are perfectly drinkable at 10 years of age, most will be even better at 20 years of age. However, if you want to see what young vintage port tastes like, I can thoroughly recommend the 1995 Vargellas which knocked my socks off yesterday. You should also hunt around for lesser known names full vintage port - Ramos Pinto, Kopke or Burmester would be examples. You might find these being offered within your daily drinker budget if you're lucky.

If I'm honest, the Ruby Ports and 10 year old Tawnies probably fall below your daily drinker band of $20-40, but the vintage ports and late bottled vintage probably are bang on the mark. Oh, and avoid anything made by Cruz. They are cheap and need to be.

2. I would also like to sample some vintage port that is ready to drink now, again, with an eye toward getting familiar with my likes/dislikes, style variances among producers, etc. I won't put a dollar value on this one as these are obviously going to be more expensive, but to narrow it down, which two producers of which two vintages from 1970-1989 would you throw into the mix?

I would suggest you go for one expensive, top rated producer and one lesser known producer, say a Taylor 1970 and a Gould Campbell 1977. For a nice contrast in style, why not try the Fonseca 1985 and the Grahams 1985. Both are just about reaching a plateau of maturity (well, arguably), both are very enjoyable and both a very different from the other.

3. I have some occasions that I would like to mark with bottles of port. Which producers would you recommend as long-term keepers in these vintages: 1997 (my wedding), 2000 (first child), 2003 (second child)?

My personal romantic streak always says that it means more to you as an individual if you can drink the wine from the year of your birth rather than the best wine made around the same time as you were born. On that basis, I can't do better than echo Jay's suggestion - for 1997 you can take your pick (my favourite to date is the Quinta do Noval 1997), for 1999 I suggest Quinta do Vesuvio (which was very good), for 2001 I suggest either the Vesuvio or Quinta do Noval's Silval vintage port and for 2005 I suggest that you wait and see since a number of producers have already indicated that they will be releasing vintage port.

4. I live in the SF Bay Area (on the Peninsula), do you have any local retailers whom you recommend? I know K&L and Beltramo's well. What about recommended web retailers?

Can't help there, sorry!

And the last piece of advice is .... enjoy the port. That's what it was made for!

Alex

Luc Gauthier · Post by **Luc Gauthier** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:02 am

Bienvenue !!
You won't be sorry you joined . Give the Warres Otima 10 and 20 yr Tawny a shot .
Once you've become comfortable with your choices , then comes the task of choosing what type of food accompanies your Port . Your choices range from pigeon breasts wrapped in bacon to Stilton cheese to nuts and last but not least Peanut butter

Luc

Rich Greenberg · Post by **Rich Greenberg** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:22 am

Wow! Thanks to all for the welcome and very useful suggestions.

Alex & Jay thanks for pointing me to some actual birth year ports for '99 and '01. Thoughts on the aging potential for those? I'm thinking that they need to do well up to their 30th birthday.

Alex, funny you mention the '77 Gould as I found one, and purchased it, yesterday!

Lots of information to digest here, and I'm looking forward to the exploration of the many different faces of port, and finding the ones I like. I'll check/report back in as I go.

Thanks again!

Rich

Al B. · Post by **Al B.** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:36 am

Rich,

My personal view is that the Vesuvio from both '99 and '01 will be capable of surviving until their 30th birthdays. I also suspect that the Silval will, but will have matured further than the Vesuvio.

But I would have absolute confidence that all of the ports that everyone has suggested to you so far will be wonderful after 30 years provided that they are stored properly.

I also really hope you enjoy that Gould Campbell '77. I have tried it three times so far. Once was amazing, really good and still really youthful. The other two times were disappointing as the wine had been tainted with TCA and so tasted flat and mushroomy. However, my poor strike rate seems to be much worse that most people on this board.

Alex