Storage Conditions - Fact or Fiction

[Derek T.]

Another thread developing tonight caused me to raise this, again

The lodges in VNG are not air conditioned and the temperature fluctuation from night to day and month to month must be significant. Now I have seen evidence of some parts of some of these cellars being underground, where the temperature would be more stable, but I have also seen bottles of VP and casks of old tawny stored above ground level.

The very fact that 99.99%+ of the wine that comes from VNG is not cooked tells me that we are all a bit too anal about our storage conditions :?

Discuss..............

Derek

[Alan C.]

Interesting, and as you know from that Harveys we shared with KillerB, you can still get gems from dodgey storage.

I would have to ask the question....What are we NOT anal about when it comes to Port?

[Derek T.]

I would have to ask the question....What are we NOT anal about when it comes to Port?

Sharing our Collective Port Wisdom and sharing our port with people who appreciate it

Derek

[Alan C.]

Ha,ha,ha.

Oh go on then...get all serious on me!

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

Another thread developing

That thread.

[Derek T.]

Julian,

I was trying not to hijack your thread on great bottlings - happy to continue the debate wherever you prefer?

Derek

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

I’m not complaining about the new thread. I’m complaining about (and repairing) the non-cross-linking.

Carry on!

[Jay Powers]

I think that perhaps the obsession with storage conditions can be taken to far. My own storage is completely passive, but there has not been enough time to tell yet.

I have enjoyed many great wines and port at my Father-in-law's in Minnesota, where summer temperature can reach 105 F and winter -40 F. His wines are stored in his basement, passively. I have had great 1975 Bordeauxs and a 1970 Warre from his cellar recently, which was fantastic, and purchased and stored by him on release.

Jay

[Raj Patil]

As I continue to search exactly how I will store my port longer term and fighting with such a high cost using offsite storage, this exact concern has been on my mind for the last two weeks.

I find it hard to believe that old ports that are consistently revered highly were all stored in ideal conditions throughout their lives. I tend to think that the bottles that make it around for 50+ years and exchanged hands many times weren't always maintained at 55 degrees and 70% humidity. Even so people will make the same comments about the same port bottling, while each bottle undoubtably had different histories.

The cost to store wine professionally I think is staggering at almost $2 per bottle per year. So 30 years from now I've spend as much to store the wine as I paid for the wine. If I took the same money and invested it for 30 years quite likely I'd actually save money buying the same wine later. I understand the argument that provenance will be perfect if I stored it, but in consideration of the above points - does it really really matter? No one has the answer.

The other possibility - is 55 degrees and 60-7-% humidity a created dogma by those who sell cellars? As an example the value of diamonds - just another rock - is maintained by DeBeers.

[Scott Anaya]

I have passive storage, but one that I like to refer to as the most active of passive storages you can have. Being in Alaska, one does not have to really ever really worry about cooking ones wines.

My storage is an unused bedroom on the North side of the house. A buddy and myself moved an enormous wooden honeycomb piece of an Anchorage restaurants cellar up there where it will forever remain (it was that heavy) But it does the job and holds about 250 bottles or so.

In summer I keep the one east facing window covered with tin foil just like my marijuna growing neighbors, to shield any sun that might hit it on those mornings. I have digital temp/humidity readings which I monitor meticulously (the anal part of my passive storage)

During a cold dry spell in winter I have the ritual of bringing up a boiling tea kettle which I pour over an old bathtowel in a bowl which helps supplement the three other sand filled bowls of water. The humidity never gets below 50% and being a maritime climate, is usually much greater. The daily temp swing never passes two degrees but the three days a year we get over 70 degrees F outside. Seasonal temp variation is 5-6 degrees, from about 55 to 61 F.

As I plan on drinking all my wines, and never auctioning them, I hope to be fine until I get my dream cellar made.

[Tom Archer]

The repeated wisdom maintains that Summer/Winter fluctuations (within reason) are not a major issue, but Day/Night variations are.

There seems some rationale here.

Having consumed many odd bottles from auction lots where the past history is unknown, I have to say it is rare to find a bottle that has been compromised by poor storage, even though many bottles will have lived in kitchen cupboards and other less than ideal places.

I think its safe to say that Port is pretty robust, and that paying a heavy premium for provenance is not justified.

Tom

[Moses Botbol]

Although not "ideal", I keep bottles in my parents' cellar. I've tried wine that were stored over decade and there's been no issues yet. As long the as the max high and low are within cellaring temp's, I don't worry. Fluctuations are strictly season as there is no additional heating or cooling their cellar.

That being said... My cousin had a case of '27 Taylor that evaporated 100% due to temperature fluctuations and the case was stored in a restuarant wine cellar in Boston! Yikes! 12 empty bottles!

[Derek T.]

My cousin had a case of '27 Taylor that evaporated 100% due to temperature fluctuations and the case was stored in a restuarant wine cellar in Boston! Yikes! 12 empty bottles!

Are you sure someone didn't drink them and then put the corks back in

Derek

[Tom Archer]

Are you sure someone didn't drink them and then put the corks back in

If the bottle is lying on it's side, around a third of the liquid will still be inside when the cork is high and dry - and port does not readily dry off -

- In the humidity of my cellar, odd drips on the floor remain wet forever..

Tom

[Moses Botbol]

I'll get the details from my cousin this summer. It was a couple of years ago when he told me the story. I assume they were on they're side if they were in a case. I doubt the cellar was humid and there could've been stains on the case too.

[Todd Pettinger]

Derek - thank you for launching (re-launching??) this discussion. I have been planning my own cellar and am getting feedback now from various vendors regarding devices to keep "proper" humidity and temperature levels. Staggering!

Suffice to say, I will likely look at a EuroCave or similar style of "wine cooler" for my really special bottles. The problem is that eventually I will run out of space in said cooler and when which ports get the preferential treatment? Decisions will have to be made!

It would be an interesting experiment though - a full case of port stored half in the cooler and half out - in the cellar/basement, but not necessarily at the "ideal" conditions hopefully set up by the cooler. Problem is, I'd have to open two bottles at a time to do proper comparisons as they age... means I'll need TWO cases! This is getting better by the moment!!!

I'll report back to you all in 30 years!

Todd

[Moses Botbol]

I have been planning my own cellar and am getting feedback now from various vendors regarding devices to keep "proper" humidity and temperature levels. Staggering!

Suffice to say, I will likely look at a EuroCave or similar style of "wine cooler" for my really special bottles. The problem is that eventually I will run out of space in said cooler and when which ports get the preferential treatment? Decisions will have to be made!

It would be an interesting experiment though - a full case of port stored half in the cooler and half out - in the cellar/basement, but not necessarily at the "ideal" conditions hopefully set up by the cooler. Problem is, I'd have to open two bottles at a time to do proper comparisons as they age... means I'll need TWO cases! This is getting better by the moment!!!

I'll report back to you all in 30 years!

Todd

Many of the wine coolers do not do well in humidity department. Are you framing off an area or have a dedicated room? There are totally internal wine room cooling units that do not vent and can maintain decent humidity and temp. I would not worry too much on the humidity if that was the breaking point for in your cellar. If you have stable temps where the max is not too high, you should be all set until you are at a point to do something over the top.

[Todd Pettinger]

If you have stable temps where the max is not too high, you should be all set until you are at a point to do something over the top.

I can assure you the top temperature is not a problem! We rarely see above 30oC (around 86oF.) On the odd days we will see a max of say, 37oC (which equates to 98.7oF).

The problem may be the fluctuations on a day to day basis. While I profess to have never measured the difference in temperature in the basement, I know the rest of the house can get some wildly fluctuating temperatures between the high heat of day and the lows at night.

The humidity is also quite low. I am going to buy a small portable humidistat and stick it in the basement to get a gauge on how "off" it is. If I had to guess, with the added humidity that we introduce through our humidifier tied into the furnace, I would say 20% relative humidity. We're talking some potentially dry corks here I would guess.

Are you framing off an area or have a dedicated room?

To answer this question, at present I simply have some storage under the stairs but am planning out the basement, to be built out over the next few years, with a dedicated room that will be walled off (I was thinking with brick with a layer of thick R24 or higher insulation outside of that, with sheetrock/drywall over wood studs on the outside of the wall) to mimic the concrete walls that will make up the 'other side' of the walls for the cellar room. Inside will be racks and that is about it. Nothing fancy. On the outside, the "study'/rec room will have book cases with display cases built in for various old bottles that have been emptied and are meaningful, cork display, tongs, etc. A small wet bar with a small gas burner (for heating the port tongs) in the corner of the room will complete the setup and allow for the decanting/pouring of the good stuff after tongs have removed the bottle tops.

The humidity has me a bit worried, but the day-night fluctuations in temperature could be scary as well. Will have to take some calculations over the next few months as it starts to get warm and determine if this is something to be concerned about or whether it is all, as Derek suggested at the beginning of the thread, a bit too anal... :?

Todd

[Moses Botbol]

Luckily, port is much more forgiving than wine, so I would not lose sleep over it. You should get temp and humidity reading of the cellar so you know what you are dealing with.

The wall unit temp/humdity control units is all you need once you have a dedicated room.

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

Luckily, port is much more forgiving than wine,

This claim surprises me. Port spends so much more time waiting, that I would have thought it more sensitive.