Tawny vs. VP

[Robert O.]

What are the idealized characteristics of each and what is the difference between the two in terms of taste?

Obviously, i've had both and can tell that they do taste differently, but sometimes when I am dealing with a cheaper VP and a less aged tawny, the differences aren't as stark to me, so it made me wonder what the idealized difference between the two are.

Thanks,
Bob

[Alan C.]

You can talk in general terms, but this is a very subjective question.
What do you like in a Port. I like a full bodied taste, with a few strong flavours, and a suggestion of other lighter flavours. I also love the smooth aftertaste that lingers.
VP's at their best and in their prime can and do achieve all of that and more. A great Tawny(Which in the Wine Tasters opinion, didn't quite achieve VP Status) and an ordinary or poor VP can taste similar.
To me, in the Port World, you set off on a journey with the Ruby Port that has the basic building blocks, but is watery and brutal. The further up the line you go, the sophistication starts to kick in. And when you reach the Summit, it is a Big Bold VP in its drinking window, that can be anything from 30 to 70 years old.
So for me, theres no straight forward answer, but an evolving individual judgement, knowing the basic limitations of each catorgory. It is best to stick to such a simple theory, for the road to Greater Knowledge is filled with distractions and connundrems.

[Derek T.]

Bob,

I am from the school that thinks that VP is the King of ports. Others, including the winemakers/blenders in the Douro/VNG would go for aged tawny as the ultimate expression of the art of making port.

I actually agree with both camps. VP is, compratively, easy to make. That doesn't mean it is easy to make a great VP, jst that the process is much easier than making a great aged tawny.

Blah, blah, blah - I am avoiding you question

In terms of what I expect from each, in order of importance to me:

VP: very smooth, big nose, little alcohol, fruity, chewy

Tawny: nutty, thick, warming

Derek

[Alan C.]

I dopnt want to kick off that other classic arguement, but of course the Blender claims the Tawny is supreme. Because he has an Ego and he's made it. So he convinces himself its best.
Nature gets my vote, and most of the Port World. It always reminds me of that quote, 'A Camel is a Horse designed by a Committee' A Tawny is a VP designed by a Blender.

Alan

[Derek T.]

Alan,

You and I are in agreement on this.

VP is easier to make from a technical point of view and (IMHO) the product is more often than not excellent. Aged tawny, on the other hand, is a complex process that invariably goes wrong. But when it doesn't, the results are spectacular - this is where skill comes into the equasion.

Derek

[Eric Ifune]

VP may be king, but old tawny is queen. For me, vintage is structure, power, more primary. Tawny and colheita is about aroma, elegance, and more tertiary. I love them both.

[Robert O.]

Thanks. This was helpful. It seems as if there is no definitve answer. I suspect as a I try more and more of both it will become clearer.

Bob

[Todd Pettinger]

I think I agree with Derek and Alan. While I know the Portuguese consider aged tawny ports, along with the skills required to blend it, theh pinnacle of a wine-maker's career, I think that the fruit and strength of a Vintage cannot be beat.

Amusingly enough it was tawny that got me really hooked on Port. While Graham's Six Grapes was the first ever port I tried (at a beer tasting for crying out loud!) it was good, but the 10 year Tawny that I tried next was what got this guy hooked.

Many people experience many different flavours and subtleties in their tawny, but it seems that the most widely-reported are:
nuts, vanilla, some subtle mocha, orange peel/zest, slight citrus, sometimes even smoke or wood (oak and cedar) Of course, your palate may taste something completely different than mine. Personally, what I look for in a great tawny is integrated alcohol. Smooth, complete taste. Long, drawn out after-taste.

As far a Vintage Port, well, this guy's palate is still fairly rookie and needs some tempering, but I do enjoy the strong fruit that I have experienced on some newer VPs, but dislike the disjointed alcohol, which is almost always very prevalent in a VP that has not reached its ideal age. Most people expect this is around the 30 year mark. Some obviously have the guts to last it out 50-70 years, even 100. Some fade faster than others. I recently had a 1991 Kopke from a 375 that seemed to be turning tawny and was fully developed. You can just never tell.

Ideally, I suppose VP is what it is because of the inherent structure, what I have come to understand and call "full-bodied-ness." Although I have no clue what causes this, I feel as if certain ports I am trying could easily be as fresh and vibrant for many, many years. That I describe as full-bodied. The backbone, I suppose loaned to the juice by the fortification process, seems to give VP a complexity and structure, in the great bottles, that simply isn't there a lot of times in the lesser bottlings or the off years, etc.

In the end, your likes and dislikes will dictate which you prefer, tawny or VP. And which ones in each category will appeal to you. The ideal drink for me may be complete rubbish to your palate. And vice-versa. The fun is in trying many and trying to figure out which are the ones YOU like! :)

Todd

[Jay Powers]

Simplistic, but:

VP: Fruit, aromas of fruit, fruit driven.
Tawny: Tertiary flavors, nuts, charred wood, vanilla, etc. Not very fruit driven.

VP may be king, but over time I think that you might find that some tawnys and Colheitas may challenge VP very well. It's hard to beat a 100 year old Colheita.

My advice is to taste as many of both as you can and make up your own mind. Then go with that. But remain open to new experiences, and if offered a 100 year old Colheita, take advantage

Jay

[Marc J.]

Of course, VP is generally considered the ultimate port experience - but an excellent tawny can easily rival a VP in terms of complexity, layers of flavor as well as in the "Wow" factor. My introduction to port started with tawnies and gradually evolved to VP. Given the amount of time needed for ageing, the blending involved, the quality of grapes needed for long-term maturation and speculative nature of forecasting demand 20, 30 or 40 years out - a nice, rich tawny is every bit the equal of a VP. Just my two centavos....

[Andy Velebil]

I agree with Marc. I've had some outstanding tawny's and Colheita's that were just as complex, or more, than a VP. Different in style, but both have given me that OMFG!! wow factor.

[Alan C.]

So lots of great Tawny's are just as good or even better than Young VP's.
No arguements there.

[Moses Botbol]

It's the same argument with Single Malt Scotch vs. Blended Scotch. A vintage is easier to quantify as it is from one maker, one vintage.

Both are great, but in terms of collecting & investing; the Vintage is where it's at.

[Derek T.]

It's the same argument with Single Malt Scotch vs. Blended Scotch. A vintage is easier to quantify as it is from one maker, one vintage.

Both are great, but in terms of collecting & investing; the Vintage is where it's at.

Moses,

Single Malt Whisky is blended and, I think, can include spirit from more than one year so is very like Aged Tawny in that the age stated on the bottle is an average rather than an indication of a particular vintage.

There are Malt Whisky's produced from the harvest of a sinlge year which have the year stated on the label. These tend to be extremely expensive. There are also "Single Cask" whisky's which, as the name suggests, are a limited quantity of bottles drawn from 1 cask. Each of these is unique as there is no opportunity to blend into a house sytle. They also tend to have extremely high alcohol content of around 70%

I have a friend who identified 6 out of 6 Single Cask blind samples at a recent dinner

Blended Whisky is the equivalent of Ruby or plain Tawny port.

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

I love VP.
I love Colheitas & Garrafeiras too.

Marc J. summed it up perfectly, imo.

[simon Lisle]

I agree with Roy and Marc,I was purely a vp man but how can that be when you drink very old vp which are very close to colheitas which are often better value age for age.

[Robert O.]

Clearly, I have much drinking to do to form my own opinions :)

[Roy Hersh]

What a great topic! I hope we can keep it going and gain more perspectives on this one.

[Andy Velebil]

Clearly, I have much drinking to do to form my own opinions :)

Robert,

Ohh trust me, we can help you with that

[Dave Johnson]

Roy is correct. This is a great topic. And of course, the answer lies in personal preference. However, I would suugest an "acid test" for the answer...
If someone handed you a gift of $1,000 and said you had to use it to buy Port to drink that month, what would you buy?
My honest answer would be VP. And since it was "pennies from heaven" probably something special like a Fonseca 63 for example as a starter.
I was at the Seattle Colheita tasting and was able to experience many wonderful wines, but with my "acid test" I still would head to the checkout counter with some classic VPs.
Dave