BOTTLE aged vs. CASK aged Madeira wine

[Peter Reutter]

Bottle aged Madeira wines are something that has long haunted me. Ever after reading Alex Liddell’s “Madeira”, at the end of chapter 12, I wondered if there really is a difference between bottle aged and cask aged wines. For years I have tried to find the same wine from different bottlings, at least 20 years apart. I have had two bottles of the Barbeito 1834 Malvasia and the 1863 Bual, about 15 years apart, but I could not tell the difference. May be my palate was not finely tuned enough or the difference in age was not big enough. After all what are 15 years for a wine 170 years old?
But recently I purchased a bottle of D’Oliveiras 1922 Bual at auction that carried a JNV paper seal, indicating it had been bottled prior to 1980. I had another bottle of the same wine, bottled in 2005, so I hoped that 25+ years would make a difference this time – and it did.
Of course you have to consider the fact, that the JNV bottle had been stored in a private cellar, so these storing conditions might not have been perfect, but after all it is Madeira wine, so let’s hope it was not severely affected in any way.
The bottle aged wine seemed very much like a smaller brother of the cask aged wine. It was not as concentrated as the cask aged wine which spent about 30% more time in wood. The cask aged wine was richer, more powerful, opened up a lot faster and was easier to drink being rounded with very nice toffee, butterscotch and crème brulee notes. The bottle aged wine took a whole day to open up, had much more volatile acidity and was leaner; more subdued, but at the same time left a more elegant expression.
Before that, I had thought that all the talk about bottle aged Madeiras was may be just a difference in concentration, due to the extra time in wood for the cask aged brother. But –at least from this single experience- the difference is obviously more.
I definitely preferred the cask aged wine. Those 25+ extra years in wood turned a very good wine into an outstanding wine, because of more concentration, more depth, and more different layers of aroma. And I hope I was able to express myself well enough, not being a native speaker.
Has anybody in this forum any experience with bottle aged Madeira wines?
I wish you a happy holiday season, back in 17 days…
Best
Peter

[Roy Hersh]

Peter,

What a great post and I hope many of the Madeira lovers here have something to say.

I have had old bottle aged Madeiras and of course younger ones with extended cask aging. I typically prefer the latter for pure drinkability and that is probably why I like D'Oliveiras so much.

However, there is something very cool about older bottlings that I really enjoy. First of all, the old labels or stenciling always fascinates me and you just don't obtain the same thrill from you newer bottlings. The bottle stink that is given off on the really old ones is something that I find adds pleasure and exquisite complexity when first opened and while it is decanting. The changes that take place in these are part of a unique experience that is never gained by opening a recent bottling. Again, all of these things do not add up to the great aromatic and profile of a great bottle ... whether young or old in terms of bottling as I'd much rather have a great showing from a young bottling vs. a poor showing from an ancient bottle, but of course that would be the case.

Excellent topic. Anybody else want to share your thoughts on this great topic?

[Alan Gardner]

My Madeira group has tried this several times - would have to check my files for details, but we've found a consistent pattern.
The longer barrel-aged versions have ALL been more viscous. The mouth-feel is much sweeter regardless of style.
Preference has been all over the place - in general though, the drier varieties tend to taste more like the next level of sweetness (e.g. sercial takes on verdelho characteristics; bual is more like malmsey).
This sort of implies that the longer bottle age is "more elegant" - but it's not that simple. I kinda like the additional complexity in a longer barrel-aged sercial (but others in the group prefer the original style). I also find that malmseys become too toffee-like, and don't exhibit the balancing acidity to the same extent.
So, if you prefer sweeter styles, attempt to find the long-barrel aged version. If you're a fan of the drier 'elegant' style - go for bottle-aged.

And absolutely, d'Oliveiras tend to exhibit the barrel-aged style.

Alan Gardner

[Jay Hack]

. . . about 30% more time in wood . . .

I also had the 1922 D'Oliveiras Boal 2005 bottling - see my separate post. Is it actually in wood? I thought it was in ceramic casks. Don't they lose a very high percentage of the wine by evaporation through the wood. How do they deal with that? Do they move to successively smaller casks or do they refill it like a solera?

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

Indeed, an excellent subject. Alas I have never done a side-by-side comparison, but will henceforth be more alert to the possibility.

[Jay Powers]

Unfortunately hard to find examples bottled two decades apart. This would be a nice part of a Madeira tasting.....

Jay

[Roy Hersh]

Don't they lose a very high percentage of the wine by evaporation through the wood. How do they deal with that? Do they move to successively smaller casks or do they refill it like a solera?

Yes evap rates can vary due to many factors. Placement of the cask in the middle aisle of the room versus up against the perimeter wall makes a significant difference, as just one example of how crazy evaporation details can get. I could do an article on that, but six people would be interested.

Anyway, typically there is 3-4% evaporation PER YEAR in the wooden casks. Vintage Madeira is allowed to evaporate and is not topped off at most properties I have visited. This permits the wine to continue to concentrate in flavors and body weight, not to mention the RS increases on a g/l basis.

Jay, you'd love our combo trips to Madeira with Port too. The wines we got to drink last month were pretty fantastic. WE'll be doing one again in the spring of 2008.

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

Yes evap rates can vary due to many factors. Placement of the cask in the middle aisle of the room versus up against the perimeter wall makes a significant difference, as just one example of how crazy evaporation details can get. I could do an article on that, but six people would be interested.

Seven, including me.

[Roy Hersh]

Ok Julian you are on. You are also invited to come along to Madeira with us!

Ask Eric who posts in the Madeira section quite often, he was with us last month and has a great palate for Madeira and inquisitive mind about Port too. Absolutely brilliant on viticultural topics. It was great to have him along!

[Jay Hack]

. . . Jay, you'd love our combo trips to Madeira with Port too. The wines we got to drink last month were pretty fantastic. WE'll be doing one again in the spring of 2008.

Yeah, but what's my wife to do. She hates cough syrup.

[Roy Hersh]

Madeira has tons of places to shop, golf, sail, eat, take part in a plethora of cultural adventures and enjoy the natural beauty that is akin to Hawaii in terms of topography, climate and flowers. But it does have lots of grapes growing and the nectar of the gods, so imo ... it is far superior to the group of islands in the Pacific!

[Julian D. A. Wiseman]

It is an excellent place. I have been half-a-dozen times, and strongly recommend it.