Why do older Colheitas taste fresher than older tawnies?

[Marco D.]

It seems that 20 years is the sweet spot for me regarding blended tawnies. The 30 and 40 year-olds tend to be too devoid of fruit and woodier, in general, for my tastes.

However, it seems that even very old Colheitas (50+ years) taste fresher than their blended counterparts? Any ideas why? My guess would be than Colheitas perhaps spend some time in demi-johns?

[Frederick Blais]

The quick answer is that Colheita is refreshed with younger port. It is not a secret for anyone in Portugal, though since its vintage wine, if you ask a producer, he will probably deny it.

Some companies do not refresh their Colheita and I'd have to say that some are successful while others are dull and unactractive.

I've heard last year that there was a lobby to remove the colheita category as too many producers where not respecting the rules and that was shocking some to see port associated with lies.

I don't want to go in depth about producers that do refresh and those that don't but I hope it gave you some more information.

[Marco D.]

Wow... that is shocking and enlighting!

[Marc J.]

Huh? I wasn't aware of that! I suppose that given the chance certain shippers might bend/break the rules in order to increase their sales a bit.

[Marco D.]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I think I remember reading in Alex Liddell's book on Madeira that the same is done with older vintage Madeiras as well.

[Todd Pettinger]

Wow. Frederick, some day we're going to have to get together and sip some port and have a chat. This really does surprise me to hear about this, especially with Port, where the industry is just so full of tradition and honour.

Todd

[Jason Brandt Lewis]

Well, full of tradition anyway . . .

Keep in mind that "refreshing" was a part of tradition, and Colheitas pre-date modern regulations.

That said, I'd go with the demi-johns.

[S. Marello]

Sorry Jason, but I must disagree with you. The Port trade is still full of tradition and honor. You must not take the actions of few as the way the whole sector operates. It surprises me that such commentaries are made in a place that is dedicated to honoring Port and not criticizing it.

In legal terms, the refreshing of Colheita Port is NOT allowed by the IVDP.

Anyway, Colheita is the name for Port aged in wood for a minimum of 7 years after the harvest year. Colheita Ports that are aged for a minimum of 8 years in glass containers after the minimum 7 years in wood are called Garrafeira. I believe this is what you are referring to.


Stefano Marello

[Jason Brandt Lewis]

Stefano, I don't disagree with a single thing you said, nor do I believe it's any different than what I've said.

[Gustavo Devesas]

The quick answer is that Colheita is refreshed with younger port. It is not a secret for anyone in Portugal, though since its vintage wine, if you ask a producer, he will probably deny it.

Some companies do not refresh their Colheita and I'd have to say that some are successful while others are dull and unactractive.

I've heard last year that there was a lobby to remove the colheita category as too many producers where not respecting the rules and that was shocking some to see port associated with lies.

I don't want to go in depth about producers that do refresh and those that don't but I hope it gave you some more information.

Hi Frederick!

I......................................understand you,everybody knows that every bussiness has is little "mafia side", and it will be unhonest to claim that all of the Producers are fair and nice people, altough this is not a big surprise for anybody, i'm sure, specially when we think that "traditionally" Port is aged in oak, even the VP, and what happens is that most of them they spent their 2 years before being declared in.... stainless steel...wich is easy to understand nowadays, no air...plenty of tanins at the end!
It's like going to visit a Port cellar, when I worked at a cellar the "touristical" flour was full of barrels, OAK barrels... but below me and the visitors there's and was a whole floor full of stainless steel vats!
Ahahaha, btw it was in this sub floor that I've discovered a 1907 Colheita mini barrel of less than 100 litters where I had one of my best Port experiences so far...

[S. Marello]

Again I must insist: Please do not judge some companies' actions as the way the things are done in the Port Trade. I work for a group of Port companies, which my good friend Gustavo knows very well, where Vintage Ports DO NOT spend the two years prior to bottling in stainless steel vats. Moreover, ALL Ports from our 5 brands are wood-aged! Ours is not the only company to do this, there are still a few that do it. Gustavo, I think that you should say which company you were talking about for reasons of clarity. An unknowing reader will think that all companies do that, which is not true.

All for clarity purposes, of course!

Stefano Marello

[Gustavo Devesas]

The quick answer is that Colheita is refreshed with younger port. It is not a secret for anyone in Portugal, though since its vintage wine, if you ask a producer, he will probably deny it.

Some companies do not refresh their Colheita and I'd have to say that some are successful while others are dull and unactractive.

I've heard last year that there was a lobby to remove the colheita category as too many producers where not respecting the rules and that was shocking some to see port associated with lies.

I don't want to go in depth about producers that do refresh and those that don't but I hope it gave you some more information.

Hi Frederick!

I......................................understand you,everybody knows that every bussiness has is little "mafia side", and it will be unhonest to claim that all of the Producers are fair and nice people, altough this is not a big surprise for anybody, i'm sure, specially when we think that "traditionally" Port is aged in oak, even the VP, and what happens is that most of them they spent their 2 years before being declared in.... stainless steel...wich is easy to understand nowadays, no air...plenty of tanins at the end!
It's like going to visit a Port cellar, when I worked at a cellar the "touristical" flour was full of barrels, OAK barrels... but below me and the visitors there's and was a whole floor full of stainless steel vats!
Ahahaha, btw it was in this sub floor that I've discovered a 1907 Colheita mini barrel of less than 100 litters where I had one of my best Port experiences so far...

Olá Stefano!
About what you said, I agree with all altough I must say that I did not mention a specific brand or producer that does that, but we all know that many do that wich for me honestly I don't see a big problem, if a producer does that he must have his own idea and if it's allowed or if they don't cause any trouble I must say that it's their own risk.
The cellar I mentioned it's Rozès, where I proudly worked for during 3 years as a Guide and where I learned many many things, wich one of them is to be authentic with the visitors, and I must say that many of them went with me to the sub floor of stainless steel vats and at the end they did not forget to shake me hand and bones with a big hug!:)
I have no problems to say that me and my brother when we were at Rozès working, with the FULL trust of the Admin personel, were opening some bottles of VP EVERYDAY, and it was incredible to see the number of people that was visiting us, day-by-day because of the good feedback of the other visitors that were there in the day before...it shows that people go to the cellars to bring back and taste something GOOD and special, and most of them I would say 80% of them are willing to buy some GOOD bottles of Port when they see and taste quality and they know what they are bringing back home!
This is part of my motto at Vinologia, but it works for me if the big cellars, still clode their eyes to this fact,because I will have more and more visitors at Vinologia!
I know that many of you should be thinking that this is all good bla bla bla, but for an enterprise what matters it's the profits, so I must tell that in that year, we have sold more Vintage Ports of Rozes in 3 months of visits, that Rozes in the whole Iberic Peninsula.This is a fact that I have in numbers with me!
Of course that the famous VP Rozes quality was truly important!!!

[S. Marello]

I give up!

[Bjørn Tore Aastorp Ruud]

Shocking info.
So if I buy a Colheita, I maybe buying a very manipulated wine?!

Then the question is: what about VP? can that also be manipulated in some way by adding wine from another vintage?

[Frederick Blais]

Bjørn, unfortunately it is hard to be 100% sure that our product is 100% Vintage. IVDP does have regulations, strict analysis but in the end if you add some 99VP juice to your 2000, it is very hard to detect even with their very sofisticated lab tests.

I don't mind Rozes VP spending some time in stainless steel, I'll never buy their VP anyway, they do not have the quality I'm looking after. But if for them aging lesser grapes in stainless steel helps them preventing oxydation and preservint fruit for a few more years, why not? Its all about quality in the end.

BTW Porto is not the only product that has its controversy, Bordeaux had to face some critics claiming that during the 91-94 disastrous years, some producers where putting some 90 or 95 juice to increase quality and others where claiming 94 juice was put in 95 to increase the volume of a great year on the market.

In the end, what the customer is looking for is Quality at a decent price. Should all colheita producers sell their Port under 20 or 30 year old blend? Should the controls be less strick and allow them legally to add some juice from other years to a maximum in volume like other famours wine reagion actually approve, Napa for exemple.

Anyway, I think we can argue for months on this and unfortunately the IVDP does not express his opinion publicly about this.

[Al B.]

I think that we may be in danger of missing the point here.

Why do some colheitas taste better than some younger tawny wines? - it will be because of the wine makers approach to blending and maturing his wine, the quality of the raw materials he has to work with and the way in which the wine has been stored during its period of maturation.

Personally, if the wine maker is bending the rules slightly to make a better wine which I enjoy drinking then I will gladly buy it - this is the way that creativity makes improvements. This is what the Italians did with their Vino da Tavolo in Tuscany.

However, I also have a great deal of respect for the producers (like Roriz) who stick closely to the letter and spirit of the rules. I just wish that the IVDP could create a category for "experimental" port where a producer who wanted to try new things could do so - I wonder what a solera port would taste like, for example.

Alex

[Andy Velebil]

After drinking over 15+ old Colheita's tonight (none younger than 1940) I have learned that bottling date is VERY important. I will elaborate further later, but my pillow is calling right now. Good night...andy

[Kris Henderson]

Getting back to the question, of why do older Colheita's taste fresher than older tawnies. I do not think it is because Colheita's are "freshened" with younger wine. Tawny ports with an indication of age (10, 20, 30, 40 years) are blends of vintages. So a 40 year tawny will have some wine in it that is older than 40 years and some wine in it that is younger than 40 years. This younger wine should also "freshen" the tawny. According to previous posts, the same thing is done to Colheita's so this would not explain the difference.

I have never compared a tawny to a Colheita of similar age so I'm not even sure the premise of the question is true. Assuming that it is true, here are some reasons I can think of why a Colheita would taste fresher than a tawny of similar age:

1. Bottling date. For Colheita's and Tawnies, it is important to pay attention to the bottling date. Comparing a Colheita that was bottled recently to a Tawny that was bottled several years before could explain the difference.

2. Barrel size. I recently learned that ruby ports are aged in very large barrels and tawny styled ports are aged is small barrels. A small barrel will have more surface area to volume than a large barrel. This will affect the aging process. If a tawny is aged in a barrel smaller than a colheita, this could explain the difference.

3. Use of different vineyards. A producer might choose better grapes that age better for their Colheita's.

4. Blending vintages for Tawnies. A 40 year tawny will contain some old wine and some young wine. For example, 50% could be 60 years old and 50% could be 20 years old. A tawny that is about 40 years old should contain wine that is 100% from the same vintage. The 20 year old wine in my example, may not be enough to "freshen" the tawny to the same level as the 40 year old wine in the Colheita. It might make more sense to compare a 40 year old tawny to a Colheita that is 50 to 60 years old.

[Ole Udsen]

Dear all,

I must agree with Kris, and if I could just add that - in principle - Colheitas are your best tawnies. The better wine will normally taste fresher at a certain age than the lesser wine, all other things being equal. As to the "freshening" process, I can't work up any great sentiment. In the end, it's the quality of what's in the glass that matters. Having said that, I am certain that this is not the norm.

I am not sure I buy the argument about bottling dates. Some people, and I seem to recall Roy writing that Dirk Niepoort is among them, would actually prefer Colheitas with quite a lot of subsequent bottle age.

And stop dissing Rozes' VPs. Of late they are rather good, and particularly good value. Your information might be somewhat dated?

[Marco D.]

Colheitas are your best tawnies. The better wine will normally taste fresher at a certain age than the lesser wine, all other things being equal.

Hi Ole,

I assume you are saying that a company that makes both regular tawnies and Colheitas would put their better grapes into Colheitas. But what about companies that do not make Colheitas (that I know of) like Taylor and Fonseca. I would assume they would put their best cask aged wine into their age-designated tawnies... yet they are typically not as good (to my tastes) than your typical Colheita from Niepoort, Noval etc. Of course, one could argue that the focus of Taylor and Fonseca, etc are not in the cask aged wines to begin with. Interesting issue.