Negra Mole x Noble varieties

[guilherme]

By far the most planted grape variety in Madeira is
Negra Mole. I do not know for sure, but it seens that it
wasn't the case prior to the decline of Madeira wines, after
the phyloxera.

Anyway, wouldn't Madeira future be brighter if more noble
varieties (Boal, Sercial, Malmsey, Verdelho, Terrantez)
would be planted, replacing part of the Negra Mole.

Nobody speak about a great old Madeira made from ... Negra Mole.

Guilherme

[Peter Reutter]

The TNM grape is much easier to cultivate and has higher yields, that is the main reason for its extensive cultivation. What you say about the lower quality used to be true, due to rather careless handling of the grape.
But as many excellent new blends show, the grape has very good potential and many of the new "Harvest" or "Colheita" wines are made from TNM (and other tinta varieties and Triunfo) as well. Some commenters centuries ago did regards the TNM as equal to the so-called "noble" varieties, but you are right, there a only a few Tinta vintage wines around. Below you will find a post with a tasting note of an 1863 Tinta vintage wine. It was well beyond its peak , but judgeing from the nose, I would guess that the wine once was excellent.
Perhaps someone in this forum has a TN from a TNM vintage wine?

[guilherme]

[quote="Peter Reutter"]The TNM grape is much easier to cultivate and has higher yields, that is the main reason for its extensive cultivation. "

Peter, that is precisely the poverty and mediocrity vicious circle. If Madeira was a big wine region, could be an approach. Medium to above medium quality, mammoth production, mass sales. But is not the case. Madeira is too small and could profit quite a lot more, and so the wine lovers, if it improved the qualitiy, pushing it to the high levels it can yield. Otherwise, making interesting burnt wines fro thr french people drink as another "aperitif", as Noilly Prat and others.

Take a look around for the wiens that made Madeir worth seeking and
drinking. No Negra Mole. Would be like changing the Pinot Noir for gamay in the Côte d'Or .

Guilherme

[Roy Hersh]

Guilherme,

It is my distinct pleasure to thank you for coming here and as you know I really appreciate you doing so. It is great to have another brilliant mind here when it comes to Port, Madeira and Douro wines. Welcome aboard! :)

I must say that from my experience on the island discussing the Negra Mole (in the past TNM) grape and qualitative issues, I learned a lot talking to various growers and producers.

I believe that some of the impressions of the brilliant Cossart (in his famous book) are not 100% accurate. Broadbent, Mannie Berk and others on the island have talked about the fact that even back in the 19th century ... that it was a well guarded secret that some small percentage of Tinta Negra Mole (back then) was added to the noble varieties for some of the famous Vintage Madeiras we enjoy today. I am talking about trace amounts of 3-5% not 10-15%. Whether it was used to provide further volume or lower the cost or whatever ... I really am not sure why. But it was not an isolated incident.

The grape really had a "mostly" bad reputation but not all of that was deservedly correct. It is a fact, that when planted in close proximity to other Noble grapes it can take on some similar charactheristics. I have tasted examples and have seen it closely emulate ther real McCoys and was pretty shocked by this. Today, Negra Mole probably exceeds 80% of all grapes harvested on the island. It is blended in with the Noble grapes in larger percentage than ever before ... however, the quality of Negra Mole is unquestionably better than it was even thirty years ago.

Of course the cheap Rainwater and 3-5 year old blends have a major proportion of this. That said, I had a Terrantez recently that I thought was great and then learned about the significant percentage of Negra Mole in the blend and had even more respect for the grape than ever before!

Again, it is great to have you join us and it is also nice to see Peter back here in 2008!!!

[Shawn Denkler]

Madeira would have a much brighter future if more of the noble varieties were planted - very true. Unfortunately I have heard that growing bananas on the island makes more money than growing grapes. The actual amount of land planted to grapes on the island is surprisingly small.

There have been some small increases in the plantings of the noble varieties because of changes in the labeling laws years back. Now if the label says Bual or one of the other noble grapes is has to be 75% (I believe) of that variety. Before Tinta Negro Mole was used for all Madeira types with just the sweetness level changing to represent the style of the noble grape.

[Peter Reutter]

yes, it is true, the growing of bananas is far more profitable... but the bigegst threat is tourism itself, since a lot of vineyards have been used for tourist facilities. also the ever expanding population of madeira-island and the expansian of the city of funchal has put a lot of pressure on the land owners to cash is their vineyards. when you look at older maps, one can easily notice that almost all the land of sao martinho which is located west of funchal has been turned into a suburb of funchal. so wines like the old AO-SM (sm for sao martinho) are definitely a thing of the past. the same thing is happening in the cama de lobos area. so despite the madeira-revival that has undoubtedly taken place, the overall wine-growing area has been on a steady decline...
peter

[guilherme]

Tinta Negra Mole, as You know, a cross of Grenache with Pinot Noir, was planted even in continental Portugal prior to phyloxera. Alentejo had a lot.If we read the chronicles from the 19th century, prior to phyloxera, we learn that Terrantez was also widely planted in cotinental Portugal . By some reason that to me remains obscure, many vaieties were not replanted after the plague (I always ask to portuguese winemakers and never got an answer) . As for Madeira, it dove into mediocrity. Only now it is trying to recover.Madeira, a glamourous and expensive wine until the end of the 19th century, changed grapes for bananas ... It is impossible to compete with Brasil on the banana field ... even with other countries with vast land suitable for that culture. So, small Madeira island should try more profitable cultures, as fine wine grapes, as it did in the past and certainly can do again. A matter of mentality. Keep Negra Mole, nothing against. But increase the noble varieties from its actual marginal figures, or at the end Madeira will turn into a "Vermouth" sort of wine place.

Roy, thanks a lot for the welcome. It' a a pleasure to participate in this
exciting forum.

Guilherme

[pgwerner]

I'll go out on a limb here, but, with the possible exception of some old Moscatel Madeiras I've had, I don't pick up a lot varietal character from Madeiras. The most pronounced flavor I pick up is the distinct flavor of Madeira, and then the variations of sweetness across the range of different Madeira styles. From there, the variations in flavor of Madeiras don't seem to rest on distinct grape flavor profiles, other than one or two distinctly muscaty Moscatels I've had.

Also, from what I've heard the drop in quality during the 19th Century wasn't so much about TNM vs noble grape varieties as the fact that they were resorting to fox grapes - Vitis labrusca – that were resistant to phylloxera. Thankfully, during the 20th Century, fox grapes have been consigned to the role of rootstock.