Port Bottles and Global Warming

[JacobH]

Forgive me if this has been discussed before…I've tried to check but I'm not sure I'm operating the new "search" function correctly!

Anyway, there was an interesting article in one of the Saturday newspapers here about the weight of wine bottles and their corresponding effect on the atmosphere. Whilst the weight of the wine in any bottle is roughly constant, the weight of the bottle itself can vary quite a lot, apparently between about 340g and 1.2kg. This means that many of the heavier bottles weight more when empty than the lighter ones do when full. Heavier bottles require more energy to transport, which in turn leads to more pollution being produced. Apparently, because of this, a number of British supermarkets have therefore decided to sell house wines in lighter bottles and a few are even stocking their cheapest wines in plastic containers.

My question is whether Port producers should try to do likewise, and cut down on the weight of their bottles? Although for VP and anything else likely to be cellared in its bottle for a long period, a study bottle is no doubt desirable and justified, it seems to me that a lot of shippers sell even their cheapest Ruby Ports in quite heavy bottles and it might be possible for thiner ones to be used instead.

I suppose that the main reason for these thick bottles is image; most people expect a heavy, darkened glass bottle when they buy Port, preferably embossed with the producer's logo. I therefore wonder if sales would suffer (particularly of the cheaper Ports) if standard bottles were used. However, perhaps this would be balanced against the cheaper costs of production and transport?

Of course, it seems the most environmentally friendly method of transport would be to revert back to shipping the wine by the Pipe, leaving it to be bottled at its destination!

Just some thoughts…

-Jacob

[Richard Henderson]

First, I hope that this topic does not get moved to another obscure location on this forum.

Second, I think we will have to start thinking about the costs of transport more and more and the weight of the bottle can be significant.

I would hope that the VP bottles might be a little larger but NV ports can be bottled in the cheapest and thinnest glass, but hopefully never in plastic!

[Scott Anaya]

Funny, but I was just discussing bottle weight with a friend this past weekend. I used to LOVE the heavier, sturdier, weighty feeling bottles. Something about them suggested the bottler wanted you to have this wine fully protected or it had stature.

NOW, however, I have noticed that when buying a case of heavier bottle wines (Gary Farrell comes instantly to mind) the shipping charge I pay is substantially more. I talked with a packaging store who mails out the GF monthly wine club since I was in there shipping my wines home after a visit to Sonoma, and discussed the heavier bottles and their heavier thicker cardboard wine boxes. I kind of was irked since the wines are spendier because I am be paying alot of the premium not only for a great pinot, but am paying directly for their over packaging and subsequent higher shipping costs to me too. Not to mention the intrinsic hidden costs to the planet!

So given the nature of Port and the need to age it, I don't think Port bottles can be made thinner since they need to withstand the test of time. However, can an ounce or two (grams) be shaved off Ruby and value Port bottles? Wal Mart of all stores in the U.S. is demanding their suppliers package things to save room and weight with shipping since every tomato sauce can made an ounce lighter saves them hundreds of thousands of dollars or something like that.

So would lighter bottles cost the Port Shippers less and the savings can be passed along to us :hello:

[Andy Velebil]

First, I hope that this topic does not get moved to another obscure location on this forum.

Have no fear Richard, this is a good question that I hope spurs a lot of replies.

[Derek T.]

Did someone mention Global Warming - no, I'm not going to go down that road again :devil:

Strictly on the bottle weight issue, I do love the heavy glass for bottles that are intended for long term storage but see no point in it for the basic ruby and tawny ports that make up by far the greatest volume of bottles shipped. Firstly, I think the producers could look at some of the European markets like France and Belgium who drink almost no premium ports whatsoever and consume most of the cheap stuff. These markets are also used to dealing with cheap packaging and larger formats so I say it would be a good start to ship cheap Cruz Ruby in 3 litre plastic barrels to France.

Other markets, specifically the UK and North America will be more difficult for this idea to take hold as port is seen as a premium product and their is a general expectation of good quality traditional packaging.

Derek

[Todd Pettinger]

Firstly, I think the producers could look at some of the European markets like France and Belgium who drink almost no premium ports whatsoever and consume most of the cheap stuff. These markets are also used to dealing with cheap packaging and larger formats so I say it would be a good start to ship cheap Cruz Ruby in 3 litre plastic barrels to France.

Hell, if they would go down that road, do what they used to do long ago - ship entire pipes and have them bottled locally. The Port would still end up in bottles of a decent weight/size, but it would save SOME fossil fuels on the shipping I would imagine.

[Tom Archer]

Hell, if they would go down that road, do what they used to do long ago - ship entire pipes and have them bottled locally. The Port would still end up in bottles of a decent weight/size, but it would save SOME fossil fuels on the shipping I would imagine.

Don't underestimate the weight of the pipe (although it might be more practical now to use stainless containers) - which then has to make a return trip empty.. (although in the case of shipping to the UK, you could probably flog the pipe to the Scots Whisky producers..)

However, this debate seems to have revolved around transport costs - the bigger issue is probably the energy cost of making the bottle in the first place.

Glass bottles are not readily recyclable, and those who dutifully go down to post their empties in the bottle banks should know that most of the glass gets crushed for use as roadstone, and the fuel they used driving to the bottle bank often negates the benefit of doing so... Even if it is melted down to make more glass, the energy saving is minimal compared to the cost of making new glass.

A more constructive argument would be to promote the notion of standard international wine bottles, with consistant heights, diameters and neck sizes, that can be machine sorted and cleaned for re-use around the world.

But then, as that would be a sensible way forward, nothing will happen - I keep forgetting that saving the planet..

...is all about futile gestures...

Tom

[Scott Anaya]

A more constructive argument would be to promote the notion of standard international wine bottles, with consistant heights, diameters and neck sizes, that can be machine sorted and cleaned for re-use around the world.

Now Tom, there's an idea. Would work for everything from cough syrup, to soda, to wine...... Of course the plastics industry would (and does) fight this kind of thing at every turn. I mean, how would they continually "grow" their buisiness. Dang capitalism.........

[Bryan Robinson]

I really like the heavy bottles for port. While I have had some half decent wine from a tetrapak, there is just something not right with port in a Chinese Take-Out Carton.

[Andy Velebil]

Bryan,

That is great!!! I don't care if its wine, Port, or Scotch...It should NEVER be in a carton :!:

[Glenn E.]

Haha... one of my wife's "standard" red wines comes in a carton, and it's really quite good! Don't be fooled by the packaging, these days you can get pretty good wines in cartons.

I read somewhere that really the only recycling that is actually "green" is aluminum, and that's primarily because mining aluminum is expensive. Glass is sort of a break even proposition depending on how it is recycled and what the recycled product is re-used for. Sadly, nothing else - including paper - is actually worth recycling. (Recycling paper produces just as much waste as creating it from scratch, and since most paper comes from farmed trees and waste wood these days anyway you're not even really saving trees anymore.)

[JacobH]

Those cartons aren't quite as bad to those plastic bottles that some supermarket wine comes in and I think that both are better than those boxes! At least they fit in the fridge!

Following on from Uncle Tom's comment, I suppose wine producers could learn a bit from the beer brewers and organise collection of their bottles for re-filling. Although this probably wouldn't work domestically or in all parts of the world, bars and restaurants can get through a hundred identical bottles in a night, which might make it worthwhile somewhere like California where it wouldn't be too hard to return the bottles to the wineries.

With regards to Port, would it be possible for the producers to sell their wine in anything other than glass bottles? I understand that shipping a pipe is now prohibited, but would plastic bottles or cartons be a possibility?

-Jacob

[Todd Pettinger]

With regards to Port, would it be possible for the producers to sell their wine in anything other than glass bottles? I understand that shipping a pipe is now prohibited, but would plastic bottles or cartons be a possibility?

-Jacob

I doubt any of them would take the chance with Vintage, or even aged Tawny/Colheitas. Too much of a chance of leeching from the plastic over extended period of time. Cheap Ruby, perhaps, but I'd bet that in an industry with as much tradition as the Port industry, you won't see it. Even moving from cork to metal screw caps on something like cheap rubies won't be an easy transition.

[JacobH]

I doubt any of them would take the chance with Vintage, or even aged Tawny/Colheitas. Too much of a chance of leeching from the plastic over extended period of time. Cheap Ruby, perhaps, but I'd bet that in an industry with as much tradition as the Port industry, you won't see it. Even moving from cork to metal screw caps on something like cheap rubies won't be an easy transition.

Ah, sorry, I don't think I was terribly clear. From my understanding, there are quite tight requirements as to the types of containers in which Port can be sold. I was therefore wondering, from the trivial point of view, if it possible to sell Port as "Port" in anything other than a glass bottles without falling foul of the regulations.

-Jacob

[Andy Velebil]

Ive seen cardboard cartons of pre-mixed "Port Tonic" in Portugal. Other than that, can't say I've ever seen Port in plastic. Even on planes the little mini-bottles are glass.