Colheita questions - age and bottling etc.

[Morten O]

I can't really find an answer to this. As far as I understand, there's only produced one colheita for each vintage(?). For example, Krohn colheita 1976 is bottled in 2006. Does this mean that this will be the only Krohn colheita from that year, i.e. the only "Krohn colheita 1976" ever to be produced? It seems so.

The producers are of course able to put all the 1976 colheitas on the market whenever the like. It's just funny that you can have, let's say, two colheitas from 1944, the one being bottled in e.g. 1956 and the other in 2003. From a quality point of view it makes sense that the colheitas are put on the market whenever 'ready', but from a comparison view point it's a bit misleading. For example, two VP's of the same vintage are very easy to compare.

One can argue that two VP's of the same vintage are easy to compare but can be very different from each other, just as two colheitas from the same vintage can be. The main difference, though, is that if one colheita gets to be twice as long in the cask compare to the other, it makes less sense to compare them since they (on paper) are so far apart.

My point is that it would be interesting to see how e.g. the Krohn colheita 1976 would evolve had some of it still been in cask today. Maybe one will say that the one bottled later than 2006 might then be over-the-top since it was put on the market in 2006 because it was 'perfect' by then (or perhaps because the market was ready by then, the stocks were too large, etc) and thus it doesn't make sense to make two different colheitas from one vintage.

Maybe my post is about when and why the producers believe that "now the time is right for the 19xx colheita" :?

Other questions I came to think of when writing the above:
Are there any colheitas from e.g. the 1960's (or whatever decade you like) that have not yet made to the market, i.e. are there any goodies we should all be eagerly waiting for to be bottled and released?
Do "all" tawny/colheitas get better with age (when stored in cask)?
Do the angel's share get too high at some point which makes it too problematic to not bottle the port? (Problematic, as in: too high cost of the bottle compared to the quality, etc.)
The Krohn colheita 1976 has been in cask for 30 years. The Krohn colheita 1997 has been in cask for about 10 years. Is the aging potential for the 1976 far greater than the 1997 because of the time the wine has spent in cask?
Imagine that the Krohn colheita 1976 and 1997 had the exact same grapes that happened to be produced 21 years apart (time machine!), and that the 1976 had spent 30 years in cask and the 1997 had spent 9 years in cask. If I drank both today ---- oh well, I can't remember the question now...
Are colheitas these days younger (in terms of years in cask), than 20-30-40 years ago? Or am I biased because the supplies of younger colheitas are greater due to the fact that they were put on the market just recently?
Are there made any time tables (like this one) that show which years all producers put their different colheitas on the market? It would be fun to see how the producers in some vintages may put their colheitas on the market about the same time, whereas other vintages may yield colheitas bottles 10-20-30 years apart. Maybe a FTLOP project?

Maybe I should stop thinking so much about Colheitas?!

[Moses Botbol]

I've seen Colheitas bottled at all sorts of cask ages. I do not see any logic to this. There's still casks of port from 30's on that could be bottled fairly easily. Maybe it's used for blending aged tawny?

Would like to hear fromt he "experts" on this too.

[João Rico]

I can't really find an answer to this. As far as I understand, there's only produced one colheita for each vintage(?). For example, Krohn colheita 1976 is bottled in 2006. Does this mean that this will be the only Krohn colheita from that year, i.e. the only "Krohn colheita 1976" ever to be produced? It seems so.

I think that a colheita from any year is produced just one time. They put all the wine to be colheita, in barrels and it will be released from time to time, year to year, and sometimes when the market requires.

Are there any colheitas from e.g. the 1960's (or whatever decade you like) that have not yet made to the market, i.e. are there any goodies we should all be eagerly waiting for to be bottled and released?

Yes it can be possible, and i tasted one from 1970 that will hit the market soon.

Do "all" tawny/colheitas get better with age (when stored in cask)?

Yes, when well taken care.

The Krohn colheita 1976 has been in cask for 30 years. The Krohn colheita 1997 has been in cask for about 10 years. Is the aging potential for the 1976 far greater than the 1997 because of the time the wine has spent in cask?

You're comparing two different vintages. 1997 can have more aging potential, or simplyfiyng, 1997 can be allways a greater colheita that 1976.


Because of some misleading, colheitas have year of bottling in label.
If you search for a colheita of 1937 for ex, you will find a a lot of them being bottled in the 60's, 70's, 80's and so on until 2008. This is mainly because colheitas are released from request (that maybe not completely true on the early years, but when levels of that colheitas are dropping, it's only released by market request).
Colheitas do evolve a lot in barrel, and these are by far the ports that give more work to the winemaker, since they are tasted almost every single day just to see how wine is doing. IMHO they tend to evolve in bottle but most of the times not so gracious as they could do in barrel. Sometimes the bottle aging of colheitas doesn't do any good to them (thinking in Constantino 1910, that i tasted a few months ago, that was full of candle wax notes).
In almost every colheita i bought, i was concern with bottling year.

[Moses Botbol]

Why isn't there any unfiltered Colheitas on the market? I think it would be cool to have a bottle unfiltered right from the cask.

[Todd Pettinger]

If you search for a colheita of 1937 for ex, you will find a a lot of them being bottled in the 60's, 70's, 80's and so on until 2008. This is mainly because colheitas are released from request (that maybe not completely true on the early years, but when levels of that colheitas are dropping, it's only released by market request).

So what you are saying is that if we waited long enough, you could potentially have two or three different releases of the same batch of wine from a given year (say 1997) - not necessarily out of the same pipes, but from the same year of vintage.

[Moses Botbol]

If you search for a colheita of 1937 for ex, you will find a a lot of them being bottled in the 60's, 70's, 80's and so on until 2008. This is mainly because colheitas are released from request (that maybe not completely true on the early years, but when levels of that colheitas are dropping, it's only released by market request).

So what you are saying is that if we waited long enough, you could potentially have two or three different releases of the same batch of wine from a given year (say 1997) - not necessarily out of the same pipes, but from the same year of vintage.

Same pipe and vintage, different bottling date.

[Todd Pettinger]

If you search for a colheita of 1937 for ex, you will find a a lot of them being bottled in the 60's, 70's, 80's and so on until 2008. This is mainly because colheitas are released from request (that maybe not completely true on the early years, but when levels of that colheitas are dropping, it's only released by market request).

So what you are saying is that if we waited long enough, you could potentially have two or three different releases of the same batch of wine from a given year (say 1997) - not necessarily out of the same pipes, but from the same year of vintage.

Same pipe and vintage, different bottling date.

I suppose that would be possible, but a pipe holds, what, 550L? That would yield 700-ish bottles (not knowing how much is lost to the Angel's share, let's assume 33 of the 733ish bottles held in a 550L pipe) - you would think one bottling run would likely be more than one pipe's worth due to them likely bottling more than 1000 bottles at a time... ?

Could be that they bottle from different pipes as well though... drain 10-25% of each pipe per bottling. So yeah, from the same pipes would be possible. (Would be cool huh?? If you could somehow find a way - a contact in the producer/industry perhaps - that could guarantee you get a couple of bottles from the same pipe each time a bottling is done.

[Andy Velebil]

There is only one vintage, but that vintage could have many bottling dates. So, for example, a 1967 colheita can be bottled in 1985, 1990, 2000, 2008. Each one will be different than the others. As the longer it sits in wood the more it ages and thus is not the exact same wine as previous or subsequent "bottling date" ones. This is why I am a bit anal-retentive about listing the bottling date of tawny's and Colheita's. As a TN can be very different if someone tasted something first bottled in 1950, then a second bottleing in 1985 (for example).

unless there is only one barrel left, they will blend all the barrels that they plan to use in that bottling run together, then bottle it. So that way all bottles in that run are the same. As each barrel is not exactly the same as the others.

The same applies to tawny's with an indication of age. A large producer like Taylors buys a lot of older stocks from other producers and blends them into their stocks to produce a house style. However, you can never get it 100% exactly the same a previous bottling run. So that is why even a 10 year tawny can vary slightly (or greatly) from bottling run to bottling run.

[Morten O]

There is only one vintage, but that vintage could have many bottling dates.

Interesting. I wonder how often that happens. Can you give us some examples? One thing I don't understand is why the bottling date is never mentioned if in fact one vintage gets bottled years apart. I guess it's because it happens so rarely?

It would be great fun to taste two colheitas from same vintage but with different bottling year against each other

[Glenn E.]

Interesting. I wonder how often that happens. Can you give us some examples? One thing I don't understand is why the bottling date is never mentioned if in fact one vintage gets bottled years apart. I guess it's because it happens so rarely?

Porto Rocha did a large bottling of their 1977 Colheita in 2002. Then a couple of years later they "found" another pipe of it, which they bottled and sold to a Seattle area distributor. So the 1977 we have in Seattle was mostly bottled in 2005, but if you buy it elsewhere it will probably be from the 2002 bottling.

That's the story I heard about it anyway... can't say for certain whether or not it is actually true. The bottles I have clearly say that they were bottled in 2005, at least.

[Andy Velebil]

Interesting. I wonder how often that happens. Can you give us some examples? One thing I don't understand is why the bottling date is never mentioned if in fact one vintage gets bottled years apart. I guess it's because it happens so rarely?

Morton,

Niepoort is probably the best example, as I have several and can check the dates.
1986: bottled in 2006 and 2007.
1994: bottled in 2005 and 2006.
1990: 2001 and (off memory, as I can't find it) 2006 or 2007.

Not sure why its not mentioned, probably one of those things that the world has never really paid attention to except for the few die-hard Port drinkers. But the bottling date will be on the bottle'/label somewhere. Its often small and hard to find on some, but it should be there, especially on all newer bottlings. Older bottles maybe not.

It would be great fun to taste two colheitas from same vintage but with different bottling year against each other

Just wait for this months newsletter to come out...a perfect example will be there for you to read.

[Moses Botbol]

There is only one vintage, but that vintage could have many bottling dates.

Interesting. I wonder how often that happens. Can you give us some examples? One thing I don't understand is why the bottling date is never mentioned if in fact one vintage gets bottled years apart. I guess it's because it happens so rarely?

Many bottles have the bottling date on them, just not very evident when looking at the bottle. English bottlings will have it too, when the bottle is called "Reserve". A vintage and bottling date will both be there.

[Morten O]

I'm sorry that I didn't mention that I know that the bottling date is shown on the bottle. What I meant was that the bottling date is rarely (never?) found on websites, and it's on websites that most information about Port can be found. This goes for most TN's as well. Maybe this doesn't really matter much if it happens rarely.

What's interesting about the bottles and bottling years you mention, Andy, is that they are very few years apart. If, for example, a 20 year old vintage gets bottled after 21 and 23 years, then the difference between the content of the two bottles is different, but only with a margin I guess. I would be far more fun if the bottling occurred a decade apart or similar. But maybe the bottles would be so different that you might as well buy two completely different bottles (of the same vintage).

I'm surprised that no Port lover(s) have yet created a thorough list of colheitas and their bottling date(s). With all the geeky topics on this forum, I would expect that such a quest wouldn't be too far off

I'm looking forward to read the newsletter! And to hunt down colheitas of same vintage but with different bottling dates ...

[Andy Velebil]

I don't really know why people don't list the bottling date. I know I always do (when I know it), as Roy and others on the Harvest Trip can attest to. I was constantly asking and recording the bottling dates for my TN's. I think it is really important to note the bottling date. Especially for years down the road when a re-bottling occures and you retry the same Port from a newer bottling.

Morten,
I see our mission here on the forum....get people to list the bottling dates