Take a guess - bottle revealed

[Tony Velebil]

I'll weigh in a bit on this one. There doesn't seem to be a lot of scientific data to back up the fact that 375's age faster but I have do believe they do based upon my experiences with them.

We bottle a lot of 375's for tasting at the winery when people come up and for our clients. And I open a lot of them and taste them sometimes side by side with their larger brethren...the 750.

The 375's which have the same bottle opening size as a 750 (same cork too) just get more oxygen to wine surface area and therefore tend to age a little quicker...by and large.

Of course several other factors come into play that may negate the argument...a 375 may get a really tight sealing cork while a 750 may get a poorer sealing cork so that you have a one off situation where the 750 is more advanced than the 375.

Also, don't forget that many wineries produce far less 375's than 750's so they are more expensive (glass costs more b/c you aren't ordering as much) and many fill the 375's by hand instead of on the bottling line...when you fill by hand you are getting more oxygen exposure and probably less argon gassing (which pushes oxygen out during bottling)...

So...while I don't have any scientific data, i have quite a bit of empirical data...lots of bottles opened and tasted...and do believe 375's age faster than 750s which age faster than mags and so forth...generally.

Enjoy

Tony

[Andy Velebil]

Thanks for the quick reply Tony.

BTW, Tony works at a very well known winery in Napa and I emailed him to get an opinion from someone who actually works at a winery and has tons of experience opening bottles.

(disclaimer, he is my brother if you all didn't figure that out, LOL)

[Derek T.]

From the description given by Tony it seems to me that if there is a difference in the ageing it is more to do with the method of bottling and the fill level rather than the size of the bottle.

It would be interesting to know whether or not Tony is talking about dry reds or fortified wines. I can see how a more pronounced difference is possible for dry reds as they age more quickly anyway but fortified wines by definition have a slower development and I just can't see how the bottle size can result in a significant difference over a relatively short period of time.

Derek

PS: Nice try Andy - but a coppers brother giving evidence to back up his argument doesn't wash with me

[Al B.]

It's funny. I was thinking of adding in my previous posting that the only people who would be likely to really know whether half bottles develop more quickly than full bottles would be a winemaker.

So thank you Tony for posting.

It is entirely possible that Derek's point that the different ways of bottling are causing the different rates of maturation. But that's good enough for me to agree that it is entirely possible...but I need a few more winemakers to agree before I'm entirely convinced.

Or to try it for myself!

[Todd Pettinger]

Tony's post brings up a good point and perhaps it is the method of bottling, rather than the size of the bottle.

Since I haven't been to Portugal to a winery that is bottling, I am assuming someone here will have, so perhaps you can answer: do many of the producers use an argon gas system to fill their bottles with Port? Sounds pretty hi-tech for the Douro (I am to understand that parts of which have only gotten electricity within the past ten years or so) and I imagine that not a whole bunch have this technology.

IF this were the case, would the same technology be used to fill Magnums (which have the same opening size as the 375 and 750)?? If not, and magnums were filled by hand, this would make the argument that they would be potentially exposed to more air thru the manual filling process than the 750s (which by theory would make them mature faster than the 750s in my train of thought.)

Hard to say unless you really could obtain 375s, 750s, 1500s and a 3000 or so of identical product, and ensure they remained together throughout their lifetime, assuring identical provenance.

[Derek T.]

Hard to say unless you really could obtain 375s, 750s, 1500s and a 3000 or so of identical product, and ensure they remained together throughout their lifetime, assuring identical provenance.

I see you have added a double mag to the line-up - I like you style Todd

Derek

[Tony Velebil]

Todd - I still believe if a producer uses a proper bottling line to do all their formats (let's concentrate on 375/750/1500 mL bottles) then you should see the 375 aging faster than the 750's and the 750 aging faster than the 1500's. All three bottles have the same neck size and cork. The 375 therefore get a little more oxygen to wine surface (and the same goes for a 750 compared to a 1500) and should age a little more quickly.

That being said, as I mentioned above, some producers may only do their largest runs on a bottling line and may choose to hand bottle the smaller runs. Hand bottled wines should age faster than their bottling line counter parts - leading to more variability in the wines.

Of course corks pay a pretty critical role as well. A really good tight sealing cork will allow less oxygen in versus a looser sealing cork....I don't know what cork grades or quality levels producers use in Portugal....hopefully the best!

We bottle our 375s by hand using DIAM corks - which are not true corks and are really meant for short term aging...

Tony's post brings up a good point and perhaps it is the method of bottling, rather than the size of the bottle.

Since I haven't been to Portugal to a winery that is bottling, I am assuming someone here will have, so perhaps you can answer: do many of the producers use an argon gas system to fill their bottles with Port? Sounds pretty hi-tech for the Douro (I am to understand that parts of which have only gotten electricity within the past ten years or so) and I imagine that not a whole bunch have this technology.

IF this were the case, would the same technology be used to fill Magnums (which have the same opening size as the 375 and 750)?? If not, and magnums were filled by hand, this would make the argument that they would be potentially exposed to more air thru the manual filling process than the 750s (which by theory would make them mature faster than the 750s in my train of thought.)

Hard to say unless you really could obtain 375s, 750s, 1500s and a 3000 or so of identical product, and ensure they remained together throughout their lifetime, assuring identical provenance.

[Derek T.]

Tony,

I do believe you are the brother of my good friend Andy. It would be great if you could join him here in the UK one day or I could make it over to you guys to continue this debate over a few bottles of port - of varying sizes of course

Nice to see you here.

Derek

[Tony Velebil]

Derek

We are indeed related and brothers...I am the better looking older brother (by 1 1/2 years). I would love to join you in the UK. I'll see what I can swing schedule wise to make it over there...I'll bring some interesting CA "still" wines.

Tony

Tony,

I do believe you are the brother of my good friend Andy. It would be great if you could join him here in the UK one day or I could make it over to you guys to continue this debate over a few bottles of port - of varying sizes of course

Nice to see you here.

Derek

[Andy Velebil]

Derek

We are indeed related and brothers...I am the better looking older brother (by 1 1/2 years).
Tony

ok, lets not go that far

[Moses Botbol]

I'd think that 375's would be affected by storage much easier than 750's+ and that they are hand pour may make them age or show faults easier.

We should broaden the scope of discussion to include Sauternes as 375's are more common for this style of wine and the glass is clear for an easy visual comparison...

From a non-scientific view, all of the magnums of port I have had (just shy of a dozen maybe) were all incredible and just seemed to be a better example of the vintage than a 750 would be.