Do you decant Colheita's or not

[Andy Velebil]

Another thread mentioned about decanting Colheita's. What is your experience with Colheita's. Do you prefer to decant them or just pop-and-pour?

Either way, I hope you can give your reasons for decanting or not decanting.

[David Spriggs]

For a big tasting? I do decant them at least for a couple of hours.

For consumption at home? I generally don't. The reason is that I can't possibly finish (well.. shouldn't finish :) ) a bottle of Colheita in a day. I usually have a glass over several weeks. It's fun to see the wine peak and slowly mellow.


-Dave-

[Tom Archer]

Aside from the fact that all ports look much better in a decanter as opposed to a bottle, I'm also of the opinion that the aeration decanting provides serves to flush stale notes from the wine.

As I've never identified any negative consequences arising from the process of decanting, I therefore decant everything.

Tom

[Moses Botbol]

For a big tasting? I do decant them at least for a couple of hours.

For consumption at home? I generally don't. The reason is that I can't possibly finish (well.. shouldn't finish :) ) a bottle of Colheota in a day. I usually have a glass over several weeks. It's fun to see the wine peak and slowly mellow.


-Dave-

I am with Dave on this one. Everything shold be decanted if it's going to be finished in one sitting.

[Todd Pettinger]

I have done both with my Colheitas. I agree with Tom that all wines may benefit from the aeration of decanting (they typically don't suffer from it!) and try to decant as many as possible. The exception would be the rubies that I will use to cook with or some tawnys that I know will sit around for a while (more than the standard 2-3 days that ANY Port in my house lasts... ) and this is only due to the fact that I only own two decanters at the moment. I need to find a few more at reasonable prices so I can agree fully with Tom's assessment (wine looks better in a decanter so decant them all!)

Todd

[Tom Archer]

if it's going to be finished in one sitting

Or two or three or four..

Provided your decanter has a stopper, and you keep it cool, deterioration is rarely that significant over the space of a few days.

Ports do not 'go south' anything like as fast as table wines, and even filtered wines can improve. I think many people get much too hung up about the 'need' to finish a decanter.

Tom

[Moses Botbol]

It's all or nothing with us.

90% of the time, the bottle is gone that night. If it is just me, I'll pour half into a half bottle and work on the other half. I actually like to pour from the bottle unless the tongs were used.

I like to store port in the wine fridge when not drinking and the decanters do not fit well inside.

I agree that port has a several days before going south.

[Glenn E.]

As I mentioned in the decanting temperature thread, I've never decanted a tawny. All of the ones I have had have seemed ready right out of the bottle, and while I like the look of Port in a decanter I also like the ritual of serving out of a bottle.

That said, I just opened a 1976 Kopke Colheita that seems off - there's quite a bit of VA on the nose and palate - so I'm going to try decanting it to see if it can be helped. I'm not optimistic, though, because I left a glass sitting out most of the evening last night and the VA just got worse, not better.

[Nikolaj Winther]

I've never decanted a colheita (or any tawny). I must try this - after all, the point about the color is on the money - and you can always place the bottle in the background to show people what they're drinking (showing off - the main feature of serving port :) )

[Alan Gardner]

As a general comment I try not to decant anything!
One of my tasting groups did an experiment (about 40 people) a few years back. Admittedly only table wines, not fortified.
We took 3 wines with a few years of age (a Barolo, a Bordeaux and a California Cab) and 3 samples of each. One sample had the cork pulled just before serving. One had the cork pulled 6 hours ahead. And one was decanted an hour ahead. Each wine was tasted blind and the one that was uncorked just before pouring showed best in all 3 samples (OK, to be fair it tied for 1st on one of the wines).
Since that experiment I ONLY decant if there is sediment - and even then as close to consumption as possible.

[Todd Pettinger]

We took 3 wines with a few years of age (a Barolo, a Bordeaux and a California Cab) and 3 samples of each. One sample had the cork pulled just before serving. One had the cork pulled 6 hours ahead. And one was decanted an hour ahead. Each wine was tasted blind and the one that was uncorked just before pouring showed best in all 3 samples (OK, to be fair it tied for 1st on one of the wines).

Alan, can you elaborate on whether the cork was simply pulled on the three bottles, or was it pulled and decanted properly into a decanter?

Part of the point of decanting is that the wine becomes aerated as it is poured from the bottle into the decanter, coming into much more contact with the air than if the cork is simply pulled and then sat back down. I imagine this would limit the amount of exposure of oxygen to the small amount that would displace the empty space inside the bottle and only contact the wine at the very surface.

Of course I am no scientist, so this may be mistaken, but that is my perception of the process.

It is also worth noting that there are some wines (Ports too) that I have enjoyed straight from the bottle and with NO decanting. When I try decanting the same wine/Port at a different day/time, it doesn't provide as much pleasure, so it is up to individual taste on that one! :)

Some VPs that I have experienced though really did not show well until after a few hours of decanting... kit is hard to paint with a general brush for all wines/Ports. Hence why I try so many - to find which ones DO require that decanting and which ones seem better without. Hey, it's SCIENCE baby!!!

[Alan Gardner]

Hi Todd,
We simply 'pulled the corks'! Then decanted (or not) at the appropriate time. The decanted wine was redecanted back into the bottle for serving so that all 3 bottles were presented similarly.

First, you can't argue with the results - 40 people tasting blind preferred the 'uncork and pour' strategy. And the decanted wine came bottom in 2 of 3 tests.
From a 'scientific' perspective I've thought about this a lot. My speculation is that oxygen (mostly) causes a wine to deteriorate. Aerating (e.g. decanting) only accentuates this. If a wine 'needs' oxygen to show better - then why do we attempt to keep all (or most) of the oxygen out?

I am open to speculation on what happens with 'older' wines where, for practical purposes all the oxygen originally in the bottle has been 'used up' (trying to keep this non-technical). It's conceivable that there are some 'potential reactions with oxygen' that have not yet taken place and could therefore cause 'further evolution' once the wine is exposed to oxygen.
HOWEVER, at normal temperatures, I don't really see how these are likely to take place in minutes or hours - if this was the situation, then surely these 'reactions' would have occurred earler when there was still oxygen potentially available in the bottle.

So, in my mind, the only 'change' that could potentially be beneficial would occur in 'really old wines' where the chemical reactions have taken place over many years in the absence of oxygen and where unstable compounds could now exist which react quickly with oxygen. The same logic also leads to a potential change where the wine deteriorates just as quickly.

So, old ports and madeira (in particular) are probably the only wines where decanting 'potentially' improves the situation.
Who wants to host the test? And, of course, bottle variation is going to be tough to avoid after this length of time and 'conventional wisdom' holds that lower fills (i.e. more oxygen) will cause a wine to 'age faster'; implying that oxygen is deleterious in the longer term.
But I'm willing to sacrifice myself if anyone wants to host a test of the theory.

Until then, I decline to decant if at all possible - and probably only to avoid sediment. And even in restaurants I refuse to let them decant - which has led to several amusing scenarios.

[Andy Velebil]

Fantastic reading, I'm off to another dinner tonight (when it rains it pours...and I haven't even recovered from lasts nights dinner) so I'll post my thoughts later. I do hope more people chime in.....

[Andy Velebil]

I've had some mixed results with decanting Colheita's. My general observation has been that they either do really well with no decanting or seem to show better after 24 hours. But that between period can be a little rough for some that I've had.

At the colheita dinner in Seattle last year the flight of Noval's showed quite well right out of the gate, but then they lost some of the freshness and seemed liked they closed up after a couple of hours. This was quite interesting to experience and generated some conversation at the table. A Krohn's colheita that I've had recently really doesn't show well until at least 24 hours later. And another one from Morreira, albeit an oddity, took over a week to make a dramatic turn for the better.

If I know what I will be opening ahead of time, I try to decant them the night before and that seems to do the trick on a majority of the ones I drink. The exception would be a really old colheita and those I would only pop-and-pour, allowing them to develop in the glass.

As for leaving them in a decanter for several days. I usually pour it back into its original bottle, recork and refridgerate. I would leave it in a decanter, but there is no space in the wine fridge or the regular fridge to store a large decanter. But I agree with everyone else, colheita's are quite robust and last several days no problem.

[Eric Ifune]

The World of Fine Wine had an article on decanting a couple of issues ago. They used various red Bordeaux to see if tasters would prefer decanted or not. The results were mixed. Emile Peynaud famously stated that decanting does not help wine and that oxygen is the ememy of wine, but many disagree. I've never seen a study which shows one way or the other. Personally, I think decanting helps wines which has been in glass for a long time. The oxygen may cause problems; but with aeration, some of the mustiness from the complex chemical reactions disappate. Perhaps decanting in an oxygen poor enviornment?

[Nikolaj Winther]

Emile Peynaud famously stated that decanting does not help wine and that oxygen is the ememy of wine

If Monsieur Peynaud is in fact right, then the concept of a wine "opening up in the glass" must be utterly false. If oxygen only served to break down wine, and had no positive effect (in this case, I consider "opening up" a positive thing) then the wine should be poured from a newly opened bottle, into the glass, a quick swirl and then down the gullet, reseal the bottle and prepare for the next splash... eh, pour. I doubt Monsieur Peynaud drinks his wine that way.

That said, oxygen is surely the enemy of OLD wine. I never decant 15+ YO wine. But then again, I don't have any problems with sediments in the last glass.

[Andy Velebil]

I would say that M. Peynaud is flat out wrong. Decanting does help some wines. Maybe not those basic rubies, cheap red wine, etc., but for wines ment to age decanting can make a big difference. How many of us have had wine/Port that gets better with each glass, or is better the next day or even two days later?

That said, oxygen is surely the enemy of OLD wine. I never decant 15+ YO wine. But then again, I don't have any problems with sediments in the last glass.

I'm going to disagree with you there Nikolaj, as that is not necesarily the case. This past thursday I had a 1929 Chateauneuf du Pape that got better about 20-30 minutes after decanting off the sediment. Now it didn't last for days once opened, but it did needed to get some air (decanting) to open it up. We also had a 1970 Chapoutier Gigondas (magnum) that was remarkably better about 4 hours after being decanted. There are also many people on here, myself included, that have had 30-100+ year old Ports that indeed got better after being opened and decanted.

[Nikolaj Winther]

That said, oxygen is surely the enemy of OLD wine. I never decant 15+ YO wine. But then again, I don't have any problems with sediments in the last glass.

I'm going to disagree with you there Nikolaj, as that is not necesarily the case. This past thursday I had a 1929 Chateauneuf du Pape that got better about 20-30 minutes after decanting off the sediment. Now it didn't last for days once opened, but it did needed to get some air (decanting) to open it up. We also had a 1970 Chapoutier Gigondas (magnum) that was remarkably better about 4 hours after being decanted. There are also many people on here, myself included, that have had 30-100+ year old Ports that indeed got better after being opened and decanted.

I rarely (read never) drink wine that old - and I don't deny that an indeed ancient wine can be in the need of air. However, I prefer to have my older wines open up in the glass rather than taking the chance of splashing it in a decanter just to find it's over-areated and "gone". I've personally experienced a wine being very nice, structured etc. only to have gone "sour" within minutes in the glass (the case was a 1974(!) Leoville Poyferre drunk in it's 21. year). I find that I'm more "in control" when I got it one glass at a time, rather than risking the entire bottle.

[Alan Gardner]

I would say that M. Peynaud is flat out wrong. Decanting does help some wines. Maybe not those basic rubies, cheap red wine, etc., but for wines ment to age decanting can make a big difference. How many of us have had wine/Port that gets better with each glass, or is better the next day or even two days later?

That said, oxygen is surely the enemy of OLD wine. I never decant 15+ YO wine. But then again, I don't have any problems with sediments in the last glass.

I'm going to disagree with you there Nikolaj, as that is not necesarily the case. This past thursday I had a 1929 Chateauneuf du Pape that got better about 20-30 minutes after decanting off the sediment. Now it didn't last for days once opened, but it did needed to get some air (decanting) to open it up. We also had a 1970 Chapoutier Gigondas (magnum) that was remarkably better about 4 hours after being decanted. There are also many people on here, myself included, that have had 30-100+ year old Ports that indeed got better after being opened and decanted.

Let's go back to the chemistry.
In a really YOUNG wine, decanting can make a difference. For example if the wine was (over) sulphured, then exposing it to air (by decanting) will allow the excess sulphur to dissipate. Conceivably a small portion will oxidize but this reaction is unlikely to occur to any great extent at room temperature unless ALL the oxygen left in the space beneath the cork/stopper has already been exhausted. The oxygen can realistically only have an effect if really unstable compounds exist that were somehow 'stable' in the presence of all the other compounds existing in wine (mainly alcohol and water).

In an old wine, there is more chance of change when exposed to oxygen. That can be favourable, or not, depending on one's taste preferences. This is because oxygen can be 'attached' to form new compounds (ands possibly also if oxygen serves to catalyze some reactions). So the 'oxygen' effects are POTENTIALLY much greater in older wines.

So why do we seem to get change in younger wines - simply because swirling in the glass allows the esters (bouquet, aroma or whatever else) to escape 'more easily'. Especially if the glass is warmed (as the esters tend to be more volatile and escape at warmer temperatures). And we generally accept that smell is a very significant part of a wines 'appreciation' (OK that's not technical, but I've read widely that the appreciation of wine tends to be anywhere from 50-80% 'smell' and the smaller part of 'taste'). Certainly most (all?) reference books suggest that the nose can potentially recognize hundreds of smells but the tongue only a handful of tastes (please let's not digress on how many different tastes there are, which has already been the subject of much discussion). If indeed that is the situation, it certainly seems as if 'smell' is the dominant characteristic in appreciating a wine. (For the record I believe that there are 'many more' tastes than the few that are usually identified in the literature - I just don't think we have investigated taste sufficiently).
So my theory is that the 'apparent improvement' in wine (except very old) comes from the aromatic effects of swirling/warming but NOT from any oxygen effects. And decanting is a form of swirlling. (And hence, by implication I guess I agree with Peynaud).

BUT that still leaves older wine where all the oxygen available from the ullage could have been 'absorbed'. Here there is MUCH more opportunity for an 'oxygen effect'. Can it occur in 20 mins (or a few hours). I am prepared to acccept this - but still question whether it is always deleterious. I recall a particular dinner where 1928 Rauzan Segla was served and each of the 3 bottles had a 'heel' remaining which I took home and put in the fridge. The next morning, to me, all 3 bottles showed better than I had experienced the evening before (i.e 12+ hours later). Was this a 'real' improvement? Or were my tastebuds more acute in the morning (a real effect) - or should 28 Rauzan Segla always be served with cornflakes? That's another experiment I would love to repeat.

Of course, does any of this really matter? The wine's taste is a personal thing - the chemistry doesn't matter unless we can find a way of 'harnessing' or 'favouring' a taste that we prefer. And 'to decant or not to decant' wasn't that important to Hamlet in the grand scheme of things. For me - I can always choose to swirl (or not) - so I don't want a Sommelier 'pre-swirling'.

[Eric Ifune]

I think that oxygenation and aeration are two different things. Oxygenaton is the exposure to molecular oxygen which is a highly reactive entity. Aeration is the physical mixing of wine with a gas. Normally, both occur at the same time due to the 21% of oxygen in the atmosphere. If however, you decant or aerate in say a pure nitrogen enviornment, would you get the same benefits of decanting without the oxygen exposure? Would the mustiness blow off and the nose open without the degredation of oxygenation? Perhaps by sparging the wine with nitrogen or argon. I don't know the answer, but it's an interesting question.