Vintage 2004 - sample bottles

[Tom Archer]

An idea comes to mind..

When vintages are declared, the shippers mail out little sample bottles to potential volume customers and others who are influential in the market place.

Mailing out to small time enthusiasts is obviously not worth the expense.

But suppose those enthusaists were willing to pay cost price for the samples, and also nominated a single address in each country where samples could be sent, before being re-packed and sent out as selection boxes.

In other words, a club arrangement.

A few thoughts...

1) Is anyone doing this already?

2) Are the samples normally sent out by the individual shippers, or is there a centralised distribution system?

3) Is there any reason why the shippers would not want to play ball?

4) [most importantly!] Are there enough people interested to make this worthwhile?

Thoughts please!

[Al B.]

Tom,

What a fabulous idea. I think its a brilliant suggestion and would certainly be interested and contribute towards the organisation / cost.

It'll be interesting to read Roy and Mario's thoughts on the idea.

Alex

[Mike Kerr]

You know, I've been thinking about something like that recently as well, but more with an eye towards Tawnies, but I think it would apply just the same to have a "beginner sampler" for a particular vintage.

The idea I had was to have a 10-year, and a 20-year sampler package that has maybe a half dozen or a dozen HALF-bottles, each from a different house. Sandeman's, Cockburn's, Offley, Osborne, Taylor, Fonseca, Dow, Warre, Graham, Quinta do Noval, and round it out with a couple others.

It would certainly make the beginner experience a little more convenient and potentially less painful on the wallet for someone to determine which one they like without having to hunt around for 750's that are hit and miss at $30-50 a pop, or attend a potentially costly tasting where not all of them are presented. One package, one stop. It would also give people a taste of some harder to find brands.

I could totally see this applied to a vintage sampler (or even an LBV sampler) so all the major declarations (as they come out) are packaged in a 12-bottle case of 350's (or two separate 6-bottle cases).

I'd be willing to plop down $200 or so for a sampler like that for 20y Tawnies or VP's, and I'm sure others would be interested for 10y or LBV's. I haven't seen anything like this offered before though.

I have seen a Graham's sampler gift box with I believe 4 half bottles in it that has I believe a Tawny vertical of 10, 20, 30 and 40-year, which is interesting in and of itself. Saw it at a Wegmans for $140 I think a few weeks ago.

Mike.

[Derek T.]

Tom,

Brilliant idea - count me in

Derek

[Frederick Blais]

Nice Idea guys but I don't think it would work. Why would a producer wanted to sell you a sample of 2004 VP let say. This would be a very expensive operation. The blend master would have to take the time to make a very good blend to then bottle a few dozen a top! It would cost you more a bottle than what the regular bottling would end up. Because they won't open the bottling line for that and all other things involved in the process. It is just like micro-cuvée, it cost a lot because you can't divide cost on volume.

If they are sending some sample to some people its because they know these people will talk about it and that their comments are valuable.

I've sampled the 2004 Malvedos VP at the Graham's lodges and I could not take the bottles with me, they had to stay there So I was able to taste them at the lodges, I don't think I'd be able to get them ship to me.

[Al B.]

Mike,

I've seen a Taylors 4 half bottle tawny sampler selection in the UK. Again, its one each of 10,20,30 and 40 year tawnies. Not sure of the price.

If I see one again, I'll note the price on this thread.

Alex

[Roy Hersh]

Stewart and I met when he pitched this same type of idea to me almost a year ago. If it were not for that idea, I am not sure we'd be posting on this BB.

More to follow ... on topic.

[Mike Kerr]

Fred, I don't think a producer would necessarily provide such a selection, but retailers (or clubs) could certainly put something like that together to make port more friendly to the new consumer.

It's a niche market, for sure, and perhaps even a loss-leader, but it's I think something that would garner a lot of interest, especially for clubs or wine shops that put together port classes and tastings.

People attend that want to learn about Port, they try a couple of rubies, some lbv's, some tawnies, and some VP's if they're lucky, and learn about the different house styles. Invariably, there is a limited selection, with some houses represented multiple times, so your expreience is limited, but ultimately you are overwhelmed by the choices. If a retailer put together a broad package of a particular type of port, then the newbie might think, "hey, I really liked the 20y tawnies" and lo and behold, there's a beginner sampler available after the class that he or she can buy for $200 that showcases the major players.

When I first started in on Port a few months ago, I would have jumped at the opportunity to save all that money by trying all the major producers in half bottles. As it is, I'm having to shop around locally and online for 20y bottles and having to really wait to finish one before starting the other. It's costly, just trying to narrow down which ones I really like. Ones that aren't *that* good to me, I'd much prefer not to have spent the $40 or so for the full bottle. Finding 375's in my area is quite difficult.

Not to mention the Vesuvios, Niepoorts, and Novals are not readily available to me unless I search online. If I could buy a $200 selection from a retailer rather than spend $400 for 10 or 12 bottles, half of which I may not enjoy that much, I would much rather put that extra $200 to use buying something I *know* I'll enjoy.

Mike.

[Tom Archer]

Fred,

I can understand why Graham wouldn't let you take away samples of Malvedos '04 - the competition havn't shown all their cards yet!

I certainly wouldn't expect the shippers to open a bottling line for the benefit of a few geeks - what I'm looking at is to get a few extra bottles filled when they prepare the samples they had planned anyway.

Roy,

Your response is irritatingly short on detail!!

Can you fill us in regarding the conventions here - the only sample bottles I have seen were very old, and looked to be about 250ml - but I have not been able to check.

Tom

[Derek T.]

It would be interesting to know how many samples are produced and issued to "professional" tasters each year - perhaps Roy or Mario would know this?

If there are very few produced (say 10 or 20 per house) then adding all of us geeks to the pot would probably have an impact that the producers would not welcome. However, if they already produce hundreds of batches of these samples, a couple of dozen more that are all sent to one place would have little impact on what they are already doing.

If releasing the bottles to unknown tasters is the problem, perhaps the tasting of the samples could be controlled at a tasting event hosted by Mario or Roy. We could all meet up at 2 events on either side of the Atlantic to taste the entore range of ports with the host being responsible for the security of the bottles - just a thought.

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

My thoughts on this:

The sample bottles are very hard to come by and require lots of work to get into the USA. I can only hope it would be easier into the UK.

The producers/Shippers want to send as few of these as required any when I asked EVERYONE for 2 bottles, in case of corked samples (I did receive 2 bottles ea. from 2 Shippers, of corked wine ... a total of 4 ... they reshipped and one company was fine the 2nd time and the other did not reship at all). BUT ... less than half of the companies provided 2 bottles. I understand the expense but it is minor in my opinion.

I spoke to a few of them about using the 2nd bottle for group tastings for folks in the area, since Seattle is a very large Port market in the USA, especially considering the population density. None looked favorably on that and some were dead set against the idea.

It seemed to me that they only wanted bottles in the hands of the decision makers in the on and off-premise (you might refer to premise as "market" in the UK) as well as a few journalists. It was my impression that they did not want to have much of a supply "floating" out there.

So, to have they provide larger samplings is something that would need to be discussed. IF I were to personally be involved in spearheading something like this, I would discuss it with the priciples of the trade during my next trip to Oporto in early May. It is something that might be doable, if they want the feedback of knowledgeable folks with varied viewpoints.

I am happy to discuss this and see how best to approach them, but I do believe it will be a large uphill struggle. Especially since most have already told me that they don't think a 2004 declaration (split at that) is likely and SQVPs would be seen instead.

[Frederick Blais]

I think they must also have a concern about rarity too. If a barrel sample of Noval Nacional 2003 was produced to 12 bottles and that 6 were drank and prove to be better than the one on the market according to some journalist. You can be sure that Noval would not want to see the sample sold at an auction for twice the price of the regular bottle...

[Andy Velebil]

I think this would be a good idea too. It would have to be very very limited to one, two, or three sample packages per country. One for smaller ones and more for larger ones. Have these samples sent out to pre-determined clubs or forums (i.e. FTLOP, etc) where one person is responsible for ensuring the samples are used only for the tasting and not sold, given away, etc. Then the clubs can hold tastings for their members. As we all know people buy based on what others recommend. This site, for one, is very influential in what people buy (I know I buy based on what others here recommend).

I think the hardest part is what Roy mentioned, convincing those in the port trade to do this. Not an easy challenge in a very traditional country. However, those in the port trade need to start becoming a bit more up-to-date on their business practices. If they want to increase sales of port, one has to give a little to get a lot, as the old saying goes.

Also, this does not have to be limited to just VP's. They could do it with their Single Quinta's also. Matter or fact, it would be even better with the SQV since there is usually not much pre-publicity about them. Before I was more knowledgebale about port I know I passed up on buying SQV ports becuase the label names (of the estates where they come from) were unknown to me. I know they could increase sales of SQV if they put out samples of these.

For those on this site that are around the trade, how about showing those people in the port industry this thread. Maybe they will realize that this may be a good thing for their continued growth in future sales.

[Tom Archer]

I would have thought that the small and relatively unknown independant quintas would be quite keen to supply samples (particularly when it's made clear that they will be paid for them..) and that the big names might be initially unenthusiastic, but would not want to leave the field to the competition.

Although the big name blends will probably be absent from the field for the '04's, I would guess that there will probably be upwards of 20 declarations this spring, mostly single quintas.

Roy,

What was the size of the bottles you received?

[Derek T.]

they only wanted bottles in the hands of the decision makers

Would it not be a better world if the decision makers were the people who bought and paid for the port rather than those whow were sent free smaples

Derek

[Roy Hersh]

Would it not be a better world if the decision makers were the people who bought and paid for the port rather than those whow were sent free smaples

Derek,

In a perfect world, of course. But someone like James Suckling, Jancis Robinson, Richard Mayson, or the buyer for Oddbins or Tesco, not to mention Costco or other UK chains ... these folks (notice I left myself out of this ) have the ability to make a huge impression on thousands if not tens of thousands of individuals. So, in a limited "sampling" effort, where would you put your money?



Tom,

90% were 750s, 9% were 375s and 1 producer sent 187 mls (that were hand filled, yet corked. DOH!).

For those of you who have not read this before .... there are literally DOZENS of eyes reading these threads from the Port wine trade, including winemakers and owners of the smallest and largest companies in the Douro and Porto. I receive their emails, so it no longer suprised me. Also, during our trip ... virtually every stop we made, the principles of the companies told Mario and I that they were "lurking" here. I will be happy to have the conversation, but only in person. I will be meeting with a key player from Taylor in Feb. and one of the Symington's in March ... before we head back to Portugal this spring. So it is certainly something worthy of discussion ... in person.

[Derek T.]

Would it not be a better world if the decision makers were the people who bought and paid for the port rather than those whow were sent free smaples

"whow" "smaples" - perhaps Graham's The Tawny is better than I first thought

Derek

[D. Pirmann]

It sounds like for this to work the end recipients of the tasting bottles, be it Roy or someone else who hosts a group tasting, or individuals like us, would need to sign some sort of non disclosure agreement that included a provision that the bottles will under no circumstances be resold or auctioned by any means. Maybe that would put the shippers' concerns more at ease.

[Tom Archer]

I doubt that they'd be too hung up about that, but I'm sure they are wise to time-wasters and people who are touting for freebies.

Offering to pay (whether or not that offer is taken up) should go a long way towards convincing them that our interest is serious.

Tom

[Adrian Bridge]

I have read this thread and thought that I could add something to the discussion.

It is very early to be assessing the 2004's in our opinion. I tasted all the component parts last year when we put them aside. Our typical timetable would be to retaste all the lots in early February and then start the process of making up the blends. This could be as 'classic' vintage port or as 'single quintas' - we will make that decision as the tastings unfold.

The blends that we make up are normally done in the tasting room-i.e. only 2 litres. By late March we would hope to have narrowed our opinion to such a point that we make up a single cask (+/- 600 litres) which, because of the volume, is a proper representation of the blend. This will then have several weeks to 'marry' before the final round of tasting and final decision. This is why we make our announcment in late April.

Once we have decided the final blend the whole of it will be made up. It is from this that we would draw samples.

As to the question of who gets samples we respond to requests from journalists - although clearly there is a list of names of people we would expect to request samples. Otherwise, we leave the issue of samples to our agents in each country as they know their best customers. Some request more than others. We do not do a blanket mail out and prefer to hold a tasting event to show the new vintage ports. This allows commentators to taste together, often in the presence of someone from the company who can answer any questions.

With the 2003 vintage ports we encouraged some competitors to show their new vintage ports's alongside ours - making a more meaningful event.

I hope this helps explain what we do at Taylor's, Fonseca, Croft and Delaforce.