I'd love to hear what percentage of your overall annual Port expenditures are spent with the following:
a. wine shops that you visit in person (brick & mortar)?
b. online retail offerings that you read about in the Marketplace, see on other BBs, or get by email?
c. auction houses?
I think this will be fascinating to see how different habitual buying patterns are in different parts of the US and other countries. Please feel free to leave comments ... in addition to your percentages for the 3 categories. Thank you!
Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
Moderators: Glenn E., Roy Hersh, Andy Velebil
Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
99.9% Brick and Mortar
I think around once per year I have access to wines that I buy trough the internet
I think around once per year I have access to wines that I buy trough the internet
Living the dream and now working for a Port company
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Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
Probably 85% over the internet, 10% brick & mortar, and 5% online auction.
That's a recent change for me - prior to 2008 I hadn't ever purchased any wine via the internet, but that's now my standard method of purchase because it is so much cheaper.
That's a recent change for me - prior to 2008 I hadn't ever purchased any wine via the internet, but that's now my standard method of purchase because it is so much cheaper.
Glenn Elliott
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Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
Can't say I've ever really thought about it, but I would guess it runs maybe 80ish % brick and motor and the rest via auction.
I count brick and mortor as also being on-line retail, so long as its an actual store you can walk into. I am not a fan of places that list on their website everything their distributor carries, then tell you they can't get it when you call.
I count brick and mortor as also being on-line retail, so long as its an actual store you can walk into. I am not a fan of places that list on their website everything their distributor carries, then tell you they can't get it when you call.
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
Yeah, I hate that too and am a bit surprised that it's even legal in the US. Seems to me like that should fall under the false advertising laws.Andy Velebil wrote:I am not a fan of places that list on their website everything their distributor carries, then tell you they can't get it when you call.
I've run into that 4 times in the last couple of months and it's really getting annoying. What's worse is that - a month later - some of the stores are STILL listing the same Port that I KNOW they don't have and can't get.
Glenn Elliott
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Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
80% from wine shops: I prefer dealing face-to-face and hate telephones. The vast bulk comes from Berry Bros & Rudd in Basingstoke. When I am in Scotland I like to buy wines from Whigham's of Ayr and whiskies from the Wine Shop in Moffat.
20% from online wine lists ... of two quite different sorts. First, traditional wine merchants, whose service is on a par with Berrys', but whom I have to telephone; which I use when they have a wine I want at the time I want it and Berrys' doesn't. Justerini & Brooks of St James's (best known in the US as the blenders of J&B Scotch Whisky) has been competing with Berrys' for a quarter of a millennium. Piers Methuen set himself up as a wine merchant only recently, but seems to be aiming high. Both of these establishments take great care over the condition of their wines and I have no qualms about the provenance of mature wines. And I'm somewhat neurotic about provenance.
Secondly, Farr Vintners, which I regard as being a wine broker rather than a wine merchant. It stresses far more than the others that it will buy as well as sell wine; it has huge stocks, particularly of claret, cellared at Octavian, a former Bath-stone mine in Wiltshire; and I suspect it trades more wine than all the UK auctions put together. Its service to me has been good, so what's not to like? Well, the provenance is unknown and I'm jumpy about that. For wines en primeur, of course, it's no trouble at all.
Are other folk as jumpy as I about the provenance of wines from brokers?
0% from auctions: so far I haven't dared.
Later,
Dr Owl
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John Owlett, Southampton, UK
20% from online wine lists ... of two quite different sorts. First, traditional wine merchants, whose service is on a par with Berrys', but whom I have to telephone; which I use when they have a wine I want at the time I want it and Berrys' doesn't. Justerini & Brooks of St James's (best known in the US as the blenders of J&B Scotch Whisky) has been competing with Berrys' for a quarter of a millennium. Piers Methuen set himself up as a wine merchant only recently, but seems to be aiming high. Both of these establishments take great care over the condition of their wines and I have no qualms about the provenance of mature wines. And I'm somewhat neurotic about provenance.
Secondly, Farr Vintners, which I regard as being a wine broker rather than a wine merchant. It stresses far more than the others that it will buy as well as sell wine; it has huge stocks, particularly of claret, cellared at Octavian, a former Bath-stone mine in Wiltshire; and I suspect it trades more wine than all the UK auctions put together. Its service to me has been good, so what's not to like? Well, the provenance is unknown and I'm jumpy about that. For wines en primeur, of course, it's no trouble at all.
Are other folk as jumpy as I about the provenance of wines from brokers?
0% from auctions: so far I haven't dared.
Later,
Dr Owl
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John Owlett, Southampton, UK
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Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
As of 2007+
40% Auction
50% B&M
10% Online Retailers
40% Auction
50% B&M
10% Online Retailers
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Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
Since the economy dictates most things , Port buying is as follows :
- tawnies and Madeira at the SAQ 70%
- VP's , on-line retailers 30% ( Have not bought any VP at all at the SAQ in 2008 )
- tawnies and Madeira at the SAQ 70%
- VP's , on-line retailers 30% ( Have not bought any VP at all at the SAQ in 2008 )
Vintage avant jeunesse/or the other way around . . .
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Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
I'd say that 90% of my purchases are from brink 'n mortar establishments, 9% from on-line retailers and maybe 1% from auction houses.
Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
John this is a great question and ties into what Andy brought up in his comment that others quoted above.Are other folk as jumpy as I about the provenance of wines from brokers?
There are people on this Forum, who seek out obscure Ports. That is their specialty. I admire the perseverence in doing so. Of course from reading their tasting notes, it is apparent to some, that provenance comes into play with a lot of the wines they post about. I believe that is because "price" dictates what they buy as much as the obscurity of the Ports. Admirable when it comes to bargain hunting and hey, what is more fun than when you find a rare Port or one that is at least uncommon, for next to nothing? I salute that mindset.
However, as a buying strategy overall, imho, it is fraught with the ups and downs of provenance. You are right to be picky about that. Not everyone is. I used to buy from auctions quite freely in the early to mid-1990s when there were VERY FEW wine auctions going on at all in the USA. Now there are at least a dozen or more that are well-respected, some far more than others. But ... and here is the big butt :help: there are some that are really auctions that hide behind gray market buying tactics. Additionally, they are not as picky or as considerate to their clients about protecting their interests. Some use the "I am really a broker" or "the sellers I buy from, put up merchandise with us on a contingency basis." I am not going to name names, but serious wine buyers here know who I am talking about.
Let's face it, when you hear folks opening up disappointing bottle after bottle (not meaning of an '83 Cockburn type issue) of 1st and 2nd growth Bdx from vintages like 1989 and 1990 and finding consistent flaws ... that speaks volumes. The same can be said when I read about 1970 or 1994 "Grand Cru classe" Vintage Ports. Provenance is everything and although I admire bargains and will certainly take a punt when I am assured of storage etc ... I'd rather pay $10-20 more for a bottle and KNOW where it comes from.
This is why I put up the listing of Piers Methuen's Ports (for a couple of years now) in the marketplace, as I have emailed with he and his partner and know of their keen buying habits and access to impeccably stored Ports. The fact that he is a direct descendent of John Methuen is what initially captivated my attention and was the impetus for me writing them three years ago to check on the veracity. Sure, their prices can look silly at times compared to comparative prices found in the UK, but there is something very comforting opening a bottle at an important tasting and knowing it came from a very special cellar with optimum conditions. Nobody is more upset (internally) than me :twisted: when I bring a supposedly great wine and it is corked or has any other issue. Fortunately, I have had almost ZERO "other" issues and can only beat myself up for an hour or two when on occasion it is my bottle that is the corked one at a tasting. It happens and is not within our control, no matter what we'd like to believe. Unfortunately, at the time, that provides very little solace.
Some wise man once said, "Provenance is next to godliness!" I am a true believer.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
Roy , I could almost agree with you If I could get premium VP at the SAQ for only $10 or $20 more than in the U.S. .
Unfortunately this isn't the case
With the recent shake ups at the SAQ , prices for VP may drop in 2009 , but I do not foresee a significant change for VP's.
Unfortunately this isn't the case
With the recent shake ups at the SAQ , prices for VP may drop in 2009 , but I do not foresee a significant change for VP's.
Vintage avant jeunesse/or the other way around . . .
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Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
I have to take what I can get, so my choices are limited.
Up until earlier this year, it was 100% B&M.
As of this year:
95% B&M
5% online retailer
0% auction
This year I did order a case of VP from an online retailer. Because I could not get it shipped across the Canadian border, I had to wait until I traveled for business to the US and then was subjected to the horrendous import duties and taxes on what I brought back. In the case of the two six-packs that I brought back, I ended up still paying way less than I would have to buy the same wines from a B&M store at home, so I was happy.
Canada does not have wine auctions. Once in a while, you will find wine on the list at a charity auction, but rarely is it a good deal. You are paying to support a charity, typically with wines that are special or difficult to obtain through B&M channels. Sometimes a good deal can be had, but not often.
Up until earlier this year, it was 100% B&M.
As of this year:
95% B&M
5% online retailer
0% auction
This year I did order a case of VP from an online retailer. Because I could not get it shipped across the Canadian border, I had to wait until I traveled for business to the US and then was subjected to the horrendous import duties and taxes on what I brought back. In the case of the two six-packs that I brought back, I ended up still paying way less than I would have to buy the same wines from a B&M store at home, so I was happy.
Canada does not have wine auctions. Once in a while, you will find wine on the list at a charity auction, but rarely is it a good deal. You are paying to support a charity, typically with wines that are special or difficult to obtain through B&M channels. Sometimes a good deal can be had, but not often.
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Re: Brick 'n mortar vs. On-line retailers vs. Auctions ...
That is why my "dream ports" are not of any particular vintage, but are bottles that have been stored perfect without moving from day one. I want to try the best preserved bottles. As for what I buy, I'll roll the dice some on not knowning the provenance if bottle or price looks correct for the condition.Roy Hersh wrote:Some wise man once said, "Provenance is next to godliness!" I am a true believer.
Old bottles provenance speaks volume
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