Worst Value of Port

[Mark DaSilva]

The Best Value of Port got me thinking...what about the worst value? Ever spent a lot, then held the bottle wondering what the fuss was about?

For me, Cockburn's 20 Year Tawny. At $50-60 per, easily a dissapointment.

[Andy Velebil]

Mark,
Hey, great to have you back. Hope all has been well?

Yeah thats not much of a value

I once saw a bottle of Graham's Six Grapes on sale for almost $40 / bottle I almost had a heart attack when I saw that price!

[Glenn E.]

I'll probably cause trouble with this, but no matter how good they are I just can't see anything ending in "Nacional" that costs $800/bottle being a good value. I can see how it might be worth it to some people because they want the very best, but that does NOT mean it is a good value. I wouldn't expect anyone to claim that a Ferrari is a good value either.

But worst value? That's a tough one... especially since there are so many multiple-thousand dollar bottles on the internet. :help:

[Todd Pettinger]

I just saw a bottle of 10 year Tawny for $65 Cdn... Can't remember the name of producer, but I have not yet run across a 20 year old that I would willingly pay $65 for, never mind a ten year old.

And no, it didn't come with a decanter.

[Roy Hersh]

Glenn,

Just because something has a high price point, it does not mean it represents a bad value. Have you ever had a 1963 Nacional ... or ANY Nacional for that matter?

As I have said to many here over the years ... don't cast aspersions if you have never tried the wine. For some people, they jump at the chance to buy a 1963 Nacional when they see it as a bargain at below $2500. Now that might not seem like a bargain to you, but when these go for close to $3k oftentimes, a price in the low $2k range may be a great bargain for some that look at this as one of the greatest Ports ever vinified. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Now $600 for a Fonseca from 1994 ... that works for me as a REALLY bad value.

[Glenn E.]

Just because something has a high price point, it does not mean it represents a bad value. Have you ever had a 1963 Nacional ... or ANY Nacional for that matter?

No, I haven't. You know that.

However, I can twist your statement around. Just because something is the best example of what it is does not make it a good value at an astronomical price. Even the very best can be a bad value.

Don't confuse my statement with saying that it's not a great Port. I'm willing to accept that as a given. But just because it is the best does not mean that it is a good value at $3000.

Something can be a good deal and a bad value at the same time - that's part of why marginal return is personal. A '63 Nacional may sell regularly for $3000 and so would be a good deal at $2800, but all that tells you is that some people are willing to pay just about anything to get the very best. It does not in any way say that it is a good value at that price.

I wouldn't expect anyone to claim that a Ferrari Enzo is a good value at $1.5 million. But if you want one, that's what you're going to have to pay. Just because it is potentially the greatest expression of a road-going car ever built doesn't mean it is a good value at the asking price. It just means that if you want one, you'd better be rich.

[Stewart T.]

I am a little jaded, because I HAVE had the opportunity to taste many Nacionals.

However, if someone gave me $3,000 to spend on any Port(s) I wanted, I would likely go for a couple of cases of great Ports, rather than one bottle of a STELLAR Port. But the only reason is that there are still too many gaps in my Port cellar that I'd like to fill in.

Now if someone wanted to GIVE me a bottle of ANY Nacional, I would, of course, be deeply grateful.

[Ray Barnes]

If the 1961 red Bordeauxs are going for $10K or more, and some of the 1959s are running close to that as well, then a 1963 QdN Nacional might seem comparatively reasonable. Granted I am not in the market for either.

Is the 1931 Nacional a reference wine, and if so, what is that going for now?

[Moses Botbol]

Ferrari or a Nacional can be a tremendous values depending on what you paid for it. "Value" means a lot of different things to different people.

As for a port that is the worst value; I can not think of a particular one. Certainly some stores have priced port where in that particular case it is not a value, but the same port could be a value if priced correct.

If you paid 3K for a bottle of Nacional and then sold it a coule of years later for 3.5K, I'd say it was a great value.

[Glenn E.]

Now if someone wanted to GIVE me a bottle of ANY Nacional, I would, of course, be deeply grateful.

Me too!

Of course, I'd probably sell it and then use the money to buy a case of Taylor 1970 and a case of Fonseca 1985...

[Derek T.]

I use a wine club to buy my cheap dry reds and they just sent me their Christmas list which includes Andresen Colheita 1900 at £830 per bottle - err, no thanks

Derek

PS: No, Roy, I haven't tasted it and at that price I'm never likely to do so

[Roy Hersh]

Well you missed your chance Derek in June 2007, but that was a mere bottle of 1910 Andresen Colheita and not the exalted 1900. However at the price you mention, it would be a "pass" for sure.



Glen,

Yes you did a masterful job of twisting my words totally. $2800 was never mentioned but the low $2000 range was and for that bottle, it is a bargain ... no matter who has or hasn't tasted it. Great juice and when delivered at a solid price, it can certainly be considered a bargain. I know that Alex B. for example, thinks it is the greatest Port he's ever tasted. Does that make it a bargain of course not. But if he could find another examplary ex-cellars bottle for what he originally paid during the 2006 Port Harvest Tour, I would bet he would consider it a decent value.

One of these days, I am going to break open a Nacional so you can understand what the clamoring is all about, from a fine vintage. There are plenty of dogs in the Nacional lineup too, or bottlings that I'd never consider a bargain or a good value, but their are some legit bottles that can be found in the strangest of places at pretty great prices which for those that uncover them at way under their normal pricing, are unquestionably purchases they never forget. Right, Moses? The true "bargain hunter extraordinaire."

[Ray Barnes]

Roy, when that happens I would love to hear your comments on it. :)

[Glenn E.]

Roy, I'm quite confident that it is great juice. I have no doubt that it is worth a lot, especially if you're in pursuit of the best regardless of cost.

But even at $2200 (lowest US price on wine-searcher) I can't see how you can claim it is a good value. You rated it 99 points... you also rated the 1948 Taylor 99 points. For the cost of one bottle of '63 Nacional you could get almost 3 bottles of 1948 Taylor ($800/bottle on wine-searcher).

Remember - same rating. How can you possibly claim that the Nacional is a good value at $2200?

A bargain? Sure, if that's a lower than normal price, $2200 might be a very good bargain for that particular bottle of Port. But to me, value implies something more - something relative to other bottles, and not just to itself.

Am I just being pedantic again? I'm not saying that the '63 Nacional is a bad Port. I'm saying it's a bad value because there are equally good Ports available for 1/3 the price.

[Stewart T.]

One of these days, I am going to break open a Nacional so you can understand what the clamoring is all about, from a fine vintage.

Wahoo! Roy's cracking open the Nacionals! What time should I be there?

I think this thread highlights interesting difference in how different people approach the idea of "value" Ports (or wines in general).

Is a value port one that is cheaper relative to it's peers? i.e. The 1994 Vesuvio is a value compared to the 1994 Fonseca.

Is a value Port a bottle of the same wine that you can find less expensively? I found a great value - the 2003 Cockburn for $xx.00 - about 20% less than the same wine at other merchants.

Is a value Port one that has a high QPR (Quality-to-price ratio), which for wine is basically the rating or average ratings for a wine in relation to it's price. A 99 point Nacional at $2200 will have a significantly lower QPR than a 99 point wine at $200.

Of course, there are also collectors who wouldn't mind paying any cost to acquire last Nacional to complete their vertical for an upcoming tasting.

I think we all have different perspectives of "value" and what we'll pay for wines.

As I mentioned, having tasted many Nacionals, I agree with Roy that it is a singularly unique experience. Although how much any of us would be willing to pay for that bottle is likely determined by our philosophical approch to buying Ports, as well as our bank accounts... :help:

[Ray Barnes]

Personally I feel that a wine score can give an indication of a wine's tangible characteristics, but certain wines are also more than the sum of their parts, and these attributes are more experiental than anything - and cannot be accurately measured or assessed within the linear structure of scoring.

Perhaps it is fair to say, in superior bottles, you can discern the presence of the soul of the wine and the spirit of the winemaker and the land from whence it came. If great wine's true essence were not of a spiritual nature, and it did not provide an illustration of something beyond itself, then I would say there would not be nearly as much great wine as we presently have, and the world would be a much poorer place for it.

True greatness is a law unto itself. The very finest wines of Portugal and elsewhere are different and need to be thought about and commented upon accordingly. Some will choose to pay a premium for the experience of drinking something profound and great, that creates the impression of exceeding excellence. There is also a price to be paid for exclusivity. That cannot be scored either. Drinking truly superior wine does not come without a price. The very best is never cheap. But if the experience of drinking it proves to be multdimensional, for those who have the privilege to do so, then its value is justified.

For the record I do not customarily drink very expensive wine. I do however recognize there are least two sides to every story, and one should come to conclusions too hastily.

Ray

[Luc Gauthier]

I just saw a bottle of 10 year Tawny for $65 Cdn... Can't remember the name of producer, but I have not yet run across a 20 year old that I would willingly pay $65 for, never mind a ten year old.

And no, it didn't come with a decanter.

Hey Todd , If you come accross Ramos Pinto Q. Bom Retiro 20 yr , take the chance .
Even though It goes for 78.00 $ at the SAQ , I'd pay that price instead of buying a lower quality VP.

[Ray Barnes]

As a note of correction, I should have said one should not come to conclusions too hastily.

What I believe I failed to express earlier, was that two wines may get the same score, but may not of the same overall quality, based on non-quantifiable considerations.

I would also argue that price is partially dependent on reputation and good old supply and demand.

I feel in principle and not in actual experience with this wine, that if a classic vintage of QdN Nacional can be replaced by another wine of absolutely equal quality in every respect over and above scores, and does this consistently over a long period of time, then one may be compelled to decide if the Nacional's high price is worth it or not.

The wine critics have become perhaps too influential. Odds are, when somebody likes a wine enough to give it 95 points or more, I'll be lucky to ever drink it.

[Moses Botbol]

Hey Todd , If you come accross Ramos Pinto Q. Bom Retiro 20 yr , take the chance .
Even though It goes for 78.00 $ at the SAQ , I'd pay that price instead of buying a lower quality VP.

Wow, I see that for around $300 a case around here! Not sure if they are calling a case 6 or 12 bottles like I found out on the Duas Quintas Reserve

[Todd Pettinger]

One of these days, I am going to break open a Nacional so you can understand what the clamoring is all about, from a fine vintage.

Please please please tell me when you will do that... It may be my only chance to try a Nacional! :)