A tough Port question

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Roy Hersh
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Roy Hersh »

Let's do some fact checking, some of which I have done.

Andy and Glenn are correct. The USA is a significant Colheita buyer as a category. I spoke to two Portuguese producers and they both told me that total volume of Colheita is by far and away sold in the USA and also in Portugal and a few of the Scandinavian countries.

Changing the name will not happen anytime soon. Nomenclature changes to categories took place officially in 2005 and although there had been a LOT of lobbying to have the name changed to Single Dated Tawny -- it was ruled against. In years past there have been British producers who made fine Colheitas but they did not want to use that term, so often times they used the words: Port of the vintage or more often RESERVE Port. Warre's made a fine 1937 and Delaforce has made a bunch too and they are not alone. However, in the UK Derek is correct.

Like in CA the vast majority of wine consumed is from CA and wine lists up and down the state are very heavy handed with pride in their own state's wines. Rightfully so and the same applies in Oregon and Washington and NY and Virgina. So to put this in a UK parallel universe, the British traditionalists who have always been well schooled and multi-lingual, choose to not one to try to pronounce Colheita or sell it. But the real reason is their imperialist view of their being the reason for Port. Of courese it is somewhat true afterall. However, their unwillingness in the UK to support the brands of the Portuguese is abysmal. So please do keep on buying your rubies and LBVs and VPs over in the UK and leave the great Colheitas for those with more open mindedness about Port categories. Afterall, if you can's say Colheita, you sure as heck should not attempt to drink it. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I just don't think it will happen here, even with a change of name. Possibly because the British taste is for ruby rather than tawny ports?

And may it continue on just that way. More for us! We're very pleased to have extraordinary importers of Colheitas on both coasts of the USA and in the middle of the country too. From two major importers I speak with once per week, their sales are doing great and the issue is keeping up with the increased demand for older vintages as that resource becomes further depleted.

:winepour:
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Tom Archer
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Tom Archer »

Andy,

IVDP table 13

Volume of colheita shipped to USA in 2007, 4000 cases; to the UK, 1000 cases

Population of USA is almost exactly five times that of the UK

To put the numbers into perspective, the average American will consume a bottle of Colheita less than once every 6,000 years...

Tom

http://www.ivdp.pt/en/docs/Porto/Table%2013.pdf
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Eric Menchen »

I'm not surprised by the numbers Tom quoted, at least from the per capita perspective. Setting the whole Colheita thing aside, how many Americans don't even drink Port? For that matter, there is a significant portion of the US population that doesn't even drink wine, or very little of it. And while you may find good selections on the coasts, my options in Denver are not all that great. And I can think of a lot of places where they would be non-existent.
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Roy Hersh »

The most recent statistics I saw were in 2000, at the time 11% of ALL Americans ... HAD EVER DRANK WINE IN THEIR LIVES. Regular drinkers were a small percentage of that. And we can be sure a minute percentage ever drink Port of any kind.

I must change the entire demographic for the USA. In the past 19 months, I have opened well over 30 bottles of Colheita (from my cellar) and countless dozens of others. Between Glenn, Andy, David, Kris and I ... the five of us probably swing the entire USA % to the left coast!
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Tom Archer
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Tom Archer »

By way of another daft comparison, I have just worked out that for every bottle of Colheita drunk in the UK, we Brits get through roughly 30,000 bottles of Australian table wine... :winebath:

The thing is that Colheitas do not have a narrow appeal, nor are they particularly difficult to make.

What they lack is good market presentation.

Tom
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Andy Velebil »

Thanks Tom for the table.

You can tweek the stats all you want, as lets be honest the US is how many times bigger in square miles than the UK. We still have dry counties here in the states...yeap, there are places where alcohol is still not allowed to be sold, possessed, or consumed :shock: Pretty strange in these days, but there are still a lot of towns ruled by ultra conservative religious zelots. But still 4 times as much Colheita is imported to the US than the UK. Thats a large amount and the US is the 4th largest consumer of Colheita's, behind Holland, Denmark, and Canada (The US is tied with Portugal in 4th place).

Eric and Roy are correct, most people in the US have never had wine, let alone Port or any kind. We are still a nation full of people who prefer beer and hard liquor. Kinda starnge when our country was founded on Madeira and at one time was the leading consumer of it.
The thing is that Colheitas do not have a narrow appeal, nor are they particularly difficult to make
I've again got to disagree with you. They are far harder to make than a VP. VP is quite easy to make incomparision. After two years you bottle it and are done. Yet Colheita's are a constant upkeep and anything can go wrong in that time. There is a lot of behind the scenes work with colheita's, it's just not put them in barrel and forget about them for 30 years.
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Glenn E. »

Roy Hersh wrote:Between Glenn, Andy, David, Kris and I ... the five of us probably swing the entire USA % to the left coast!
Power to the people! :lol:

I don't think I've had quite as many Colheitas this year as Roy... probably closer to 15-20 for me, not counting the 11 we had at the Gala.

It's a good thing we're not talking about Tawnies with an indication of age, because I think we'd totally break that graph. :lol:
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Glenn E. »

Andy Velebil wrote:
The thing is that Colheitas do not have a narrow appeal, nor are they particularly difficult to make
I've again got to disagree with you. They are far harder to make than a VP. VP is quite easy to make incomparision. After two years you bottle it and are done. Yet Colheita's are a constant upkeep and anything can go wrong in that time. There is a lot of behind the scenes work with colheita's, it's just not put them in barrel and forget about them for 30 years.
Mechanically, VP is much easier to make. As Andy said, you just put it in the bottle after 2 years and you're done.

However, VP requires (potentially) more knowledge and work up front. If you're going to make a wine that will last for 50-100 years without any chance to correct it then you're going to need a lot of knowledge and preparation.

Colheita - as has been demonstrated repeatedly - can be made from just about any year. Which means that the grapes required to make a good Colheita aren't as important as the care and effort put into aging the wine properly. So Colheita is far more difficult to make than VP from a mechanical perspective, but it appears that it may require less knowledge and effort up front.

I personally feel that Colheita is the pinnacle of Port production because of this, but I'm aware that that's a minority opinion. :wink:
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Tom Archer »

When I said that Colheitas are not particularly difficult to make, I was thinking of the indication of age tawnies by way of comparison.

It takes a lot of skill and stock juggling to blend a batch of 10yr or 20yr tawny that will not taste radically different to the last batch, nor compromise your residual stock as to make it difficult to repeat the exercise.

With Colheitas there is the great advantage that each bottling is allowed to be different..!

Tom
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Roy Hersh »

With Colheitas there is the great advantage that each bottling is allowed to be different..!
Yeah, kind of like how it was for VP with UK bottlings prior to 1974 reg changes. (ducking) :oops:
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Moses Botbol »

Glenn E. wrote: We don't need a name change, we need education. If you change the name you have to educate the entire world about the change. If you don't change the name you only have to educate those who don't already understand, and that is a much easier task. Part of the problem is that Port ages so well that a significant part of the market is for Port that was bottled before the modern label regulations were in place. Changing the labels again will only add to that confusion.

The Port trade needs to promote its products better, it's as simple as that.
:stupid: :clap:

The industry should keep as much tradition as much as possible. Certainly there's not much Garrafeira avaiable, and most have never even tried one. From a manufacturer, it's probably not worth making, but for those who do or want to, it should be available as a style to market. Anyone whose has a Garrafeira has loved it, so there is a market for it. Personally, I have had 4 that ranged from excellent to "one of my all time favorite's" level.

The fact that British see port as their own should not deter Garrafeira or its name. They can say it just as easily, just like Colheita (I mean Reserve :snooty:). The World is more cosmopolitan now than a 100 years ago and mixing langauges to describe something is no big deal. :blah:
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Derek T. »

Moses Botbol wrote: The fact that British see port as their own should not deter Garrafeira or its name. They can say it just as easily, just like Colheita (I mean Reserve :snooty:). The World is more cosmopolitan now than a 100 years ago and mixing langauges to describe something is no big deal. :blah:
Moses,

A few Brits, and I believe I am one of them, have no issue with conciously embracing words and ideas that were not "invented" here in the UK. Unfortunately, we are in a very small minority in this country. It saddens me every day when I witness the inability of most people to get their head around the idea of what a multi-cultural society actually means. Most of it is subconscious, institutionalised nationalism that occasionally spills out into some very distasteful events but in day to day society simply results in small-minded insular attitudes and a disrespect for other cultures. Very sad in this day and age but unfortunately a reality. :wall:

Derek

PS: I don't think the UK is alone in this sort of attitude.
PPS: I say "kol-yea-ta" (or something similar, albeit in a distinctly Scottish accent) so you have to admit I am at least trying :salute:
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Eric Menchen »

Derek T. wrote:PPS: I say "kol-yea-ta" (or something similar, albeit in a distinctly Scottish accent) so you have to admit I am at least trying :salute:
Not Scottish! I think I can understand Portuguese better than English with a Scottish accent :D
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p.s. I speak neither Portuguese nor Gaelic, and my wife might suggest even English is a struggle.
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Re: Garrafeirra - the end of a style?

Post by John Trombley »

Shawn Denkler wrote: The German wine trade has been held back greatly because of the complexity of their styles (and too many vineyards when only some are of high enough quality to designate on a label). Simplification would help the sales of German wine.
This is too complicated to go into here, but ... Actually there are too few of the WRONG VINEYARDS currently legal to put on labels in Germany. There has been a huge consolidation of vineyard names (probably 10-fold) since 1971 without regard to quality, so that what we have is truly a mess. However, the answer may require resurrecting some names that haven't been legal for a while, so it's not really the absolute number of vineyard names that is the problem. The criterion for leaving a name in use was that it had to refer to a surface more than 5 ha in area (about 13 acres) to remain legal. What would THAT have done to Côtes-d'Or red Burgundy? Most of the wines that are made by DRC would be generic Vosne! We have lost some vineyards as great as that in Germany.

I like the one who gently suggested education. That's the funnest part of drinking wine anyway--learning about its insane, bemusing complexities! Now, however, in Germany, the other problem you refer to is names for styles with overlapping meaning. Every time someone wants to 'save' the German wine industry they invent a new name. The results are horrific--a selection of a classic mess--a bunch of hogwash (or is it Hochgewächs?).

Best, John [aka Sweetstuff] Trombley
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Derek T. »

Eric Menchen wrote:
Derek T. wrote:PPS: I say "kol-yea-ta" (or something similar, albeit in a distinctly Scottish accent) so you have to admit I am at least trying :salute:
Not Scottish! I think I can understand Portuguese better than English with a Scottish accent :D
Tiaraidh an dràsda!
-Eric
p.s. I speak neither Portuguese nor Gaelic, and my wife might suggest even English is a struggle.
...but once we have each had half a bottle of VP we all seem to speak the same language :winebath: :drunk: :lol:
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Roy Hersh
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Roy Hersh »

I've never had a hard time understanding Derek's accent, it is the odd usage of words that means something totally different in his country than it does when used here. We've had this discussion many times and it is really amusing (most of the time) to see how differently a specific phrase can be taken. We won't reitterate these here, but please trust the differences can be enormous and can totally confuse an online discussion. :shock:


John Trombley (who I am very pleased to see back here) is someone I have known since the mid-1990s online (we met around 2001 or 2002) at an early 4 or 5 a.m. rendevous point near the Detroit Airport ... not sure if my daughter was born at the time, but I know he met my wife Dorene. John is one of the most serious German wine aficionados and research experts I've ever known. I trust his knowledge about German wines more than just about anyone else in the USA. He has always been one to enjoy Port and Madeira too and I am personally thrilled to have him back here on FTLOP! :scholar:
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Andy Velebil »

Every time someone wants to 'save' the German wine industry they invent a new name. The results are horrific--a selection of a classic mess--a bunch of hogwash (or is it Hochgewächs?).
John, thats exactly why I don't think the IVDP should start messing with the names again. It can be confusing enough with out adding new stuff to the mix.

As for the German labels, I freely admit that is why I rarely drink them. I have been so confused about what the labels and capsules actually mean that I just basically threw in the white towel and gave up. If I buy some I usually just go off the wine store rec's or if a rating "Shelf talker" is attaced to it.
I've never had a hard time understanding Derek's accent
Derek's accent is no problem...his brother-in-laws, now that's a different story :joker: :lol: :lol:
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Eric Menchen »

Derek T. wrote:...but once we have each had half a bottle of VP we all seem to speak the same language :winebath: :drunk: :lol:
Hear, hear!
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Soren Bodker »

As Andy Velebil mentioned earlier

"Thats a large amount and the US is the 4th largest consumer of Colheita's, behind Holland, Denmark, and Canada (The US is tied with Portugal in 4th place)."

So I am just sitting hear on top of all the Colheita's enjoying the discussion. :lol: :lick: :drunk:
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Re: A tough Port question

Post by Andy Velebil »

Soren Bodker wrote:
So I am just sitting hear on top of all the Colheita's enjoying the discussion. :lol: :lick: :drunk:
Darn you...just rubbing it in huh :mrgreen: :joker: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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