I think what Steven was trying to say was that a 20-year Bordeaux is old, but a 20-year VP is still a young wine, hence the reason a VP is hardy enough to last past two days, unlike the Bordeaux.
Mike.
Extended time of DECANTING Port
Moderators: Glenn E., Roy Hersh, Andy Velebil
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- Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:37 am
- Location: Porto, Portugal
Here's my opinion:
I've openned right now(like everyday!) a VP São Pedro das Àguias 2000 1st place in Decanter October 2004 World's Greatest Wines.
Altough it's a "baby" VP like we often call here, during the day in the decanter I often like to taste it while I serve it to the customers and I find a difference in the width of flavours that we can get(of course a short width very focus in fresh red fruits).
I think that the "concept" of the 24/48 hrs is now losing some strenght altough I believe it's an important point for all the VP market evolution, because it increases the popularity of this tipe of Port and raises the wine to the top level by saying that it's a wine for a special event.
My suggestion goes to open a VP in a Friday dinner and enjoy the bottle throught all the weekend(by Monday our boss will see an increase of sales eheheheh for sure!).
Of course that VP with at least 10 years in bottle should have extra care,and extra handling like we had here last here with a NOVAL NACIONAL 1977 ... I have no words for this blessing from God (I hope he always remembers me during this year and bring me another for my private cellar eheheh!
:arrow: My experience says me that I'm starting to have many customers dispointed with VP,due to the excessive relation price/quality and the lost of the Vintage Concept (like I've spoken with Roy here, about the Classic VP and the normal VP) this people are changing their selections to Colheitas and Old Tawnies...I don´t totally agree with them but I agree with many many toughts they have!
I've openned right now(like everyday!) a VP São Pedro das Àguias 2000 1st place in Decanter October 2004 World's Greatest Wines.
Altough it's a "baby" VP like we often call here, during the day in the decanter I often like to taste it while I serve it to the customers and I find a difference in the width of flavours that we can get(of course a short width very focus in fresh red fruits).
I think that the "concept" of the 24/48 hrs is now losing some strenght altough I believe it's an important point for all the VP market evolution, because it increases the popularity of this tipe of Port and raises the wine to the top level by saying that it's a wine for a special event.
My suggestion goes to open a VP in a Friday dinner and enjoy the bottle throught all the weekend(by Monday our boss will see an increase of sales eheheheh for sure!).
Of course that VP with at least 10 years in bottle should have extra care,and extra handling like we had here last here with a NOVAL NACIONAL 1977 ... I have no words for this blessing from God (I hope he always remembers me during this year and bring me another for my private cellar eheheh!
:arrow: My experience says me that I'm starting to have many customers dispointed with VP,due to the excessive relation price/quality and the lost of the Vintage Concept (like I've spoken with Roy here, about the Classic VP and the normal VP) this people are changing their selections to Colheitas and Old Tawnies...I don´t totally agree with them but I agree with many many toughts they have!
Together we fall, united we stand.
Gustavo,
When I open a bottle of Vintage Port to drink, I do so with the pre-conceived notion that there will be nothing left for a second day. 98.5% of the time, that is a self-fulfilling prophecy that comes to fruition. Only when opening a bottle for the sake of a tasting note (which is part of life fortunately/unfortunately) or other experimentation purposes, will there be anything left in bottle for day 2 or a day 3.
IF I desire to have a bottle of Port open for sipping for a few days, it will be an LBV, Colheita or Tawny ... never a Vintage Port (VP).
Your customers visit your shop from all over the wsorld and many are new to Port and are learning and very open minded to your suggestions. Of course, there are also people like Frederick from this BB, that wander into your shop and have a great depth of Port knowledge too. But, there is no question, that you steer people in the direction of wood-aged Ports (NOTE: I make no assertion of whether that is good or bad to do!). So for you to get feedback that they prefer them to Vintage Port does not surprise me at all. Besides, there is a natural and native Portuguese tendency towards Tawny rather than Vintage. You see it in the wines that are made, or to be fair, historically speaking that was truer in the past ... but it's still relevant today and domestic sales in Portugal prove that point.
As to long decanting times, I want to be clear and for the record ...
I don't believe in decanting Ports (except for specific evaluation purposes) more than 12 hrs.. I won't say NEVER, but ONLY very very rarely have I ever done this when considering a Port to drink for pleasure. I can count the examples on one hand. Cask samples and current vintage Ports aside, 12 hours in decanter is plenty. Now there are Vintage Ports that I will only have in decanter for 1-2 hours too. So my recommended decanting "window" is between 1-12 hours for VPs (primarily) depending on vintage and Producer.
That said, a number of factors go into deciding how long a Vintage Port should be decanted, and usually at this point in my life, experience with vintages/Producers is my guide. With 1500-2000 bottles of VP opened over the years, I have a fairly good feel for it. Nonetheless, there are other considerations, but that is another topic entirely and then we'd be heading down the slippery slope of specific windows for specific VPs and that is not the crux of this post.
Lastly and possibly the most important part of my wordy post here is that:
Extended decanting of Port and especially VP, is a good thing. But going too far, say 24 hours of decanting time, IMO, serves only to strip the Port of its true beauty while dumbing down the tannins and negating too much of the structural componenets of the wine ... for the sake of having something softer first and foremost, then (arguably) better in terms of aromatic and flavor profiles.
This obviously is my own philosophy and certainly will not work for plenty of other people's palates. For example, I can think of quite a number of posts from folks who've taken extended decanting to a very different limit with 48-72 hours not unheard of and with their impressions of VPs that were better even a week later. So all that means, is that different strokes for different folks ... and that is what keeps things fresh.
When I open a bottle of Vintage Port to drink, I do so with the pre-conceived notion that there will be nothing left for a second day. 98.5% of the time, that is a self-fulfilling prophecy that comes to fruition. Only when opening a bottle for the sake of a tasting note (which is part of life fortunately/unfortunately) or other experimentation purposes, will there be anything left in bottle for day 2 or a day 3.
IF I desire to have a bottle of Port open for sipping for a few days, it will be an LBV, Colheita or Tawny ... never a Vintage Port (VP).
Your customers visit your shop from all over the wsorld and many are new to Port and are learning and very open minded to your suggestions. Of course, there are also people like Frederick from this BB, that wander into your shop and have a great depth of Port knowledge too. But, there is no question, that you steer people in the direction of wood-aged Ports (NOTE: I make no assertion of whether that is good or bad to do!). So for you to get feedback that they prefer them to Vintage Port does not surprise me at all. Besides, there is a natural and native Portuguese tendency towards Tawny rather than Vintage. You see it in the wines that are made, or to be fair, historically speaking that was truer in the past ... but it's still relevant today and domestic sales in Portugal prove that point.
As to long decanting times, I want to be clear and for the record ...
I don't believe in decanting Ports (except for specific evaluation purposes) more than 12 hrs.. I won't say NEVER, but ONLY very very rarely have I ever done this when considering a Port to drink for pleasure. I can count the examples on one hand. Cask samples and current vintage Ports aside, 12 hours in decanter is plenty. Now there are Vintage Ports that I will only have in decanter for 1-2 hours too. So my recommended decanting "window" is between 1-12 hours for VPs (primarily) depending on vintage and Producer.
That said, a number of factors go into deciding how long a Vintage Port should be decanted, and usually at this point in my life, experience with vintages/Producers is my guide. With 1500-2000 bottles of VP opened over the years, I have a fairly good feel for it. Nonetheless, there are other considerations, but that is another topic entirely and then we'd be heading down the slippery slope of specific windows for specific VPs and that is not the crux of this post.
Lastly and possibly the most important part of my wordy post here is that:
Extended decanting of Port and especially VP, is a good thing. But going too far, say 24 hours of decanting time, IMO, serves only to strip the Port of its true beauty while dumbing down the tannins and negating too much of the structural componenets of the wine ... for the sake of having something softer first and foremost, then (arguably) better in terms of aromatic and flavor profiles.
This obviously is my own philosophy and certainly will not work for plenty of other people's palates. For example, I can think of quite a number of posts from folks who've taken extended decanting to a very different limit with 48-72 hours not unheard of and with their impressions of VPs that were better even a week later. So all that means, is that different strokes for different folks ... and that is what keeps things fresh.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
- Andy Velebil
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FWIW, I usually try to steer my friends, who are either new to ports or have never had them, more toward a tawny or ruby first. This is due to several factors. Those being cost (my friends are young and starting families and don't have lots of spare cash for VP's), availbility (lets face it, VP's are a bit harder to find than a ruby or tawny at the local market), and length of ageing required for VP's. If I can find something they enjoy that can be bought by them easly at a local market then I accomplished my mission...a new port drinker! This strategy, so to speak, has worked pretty well. A few friends now enjoy a nice tawny or ruby from time to time and one is just starting to get into VP's .Gustavo Devesas wrote:Here's my opinion:
:arrow: My experience says me that I'm starting to have many customers dispointed with VP,due to the excessive relation price/quality and the lost of the Vintage Concept (like I've spoken with Roy here, about the Classic VP and the normal VP) this people are changing their selections to Colheitas and Old Tawnies...I don´t totally agree with them but I agree with many many toughts they have!
I hope the others will soon follow and start getting into VP's, but one step at a time
Andy Velebil Good wine is a good familiar creature if it be well used. William Shakespeare http://www.fortheloveofport.com
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- Location: Porto, Portugal
I totally agree with you on this Roy. I was surprise to see how some people on this board prefered some of the vintage their drink on the 2nd day than on the night before. I have not reach yet the 1000 VP experience but it had never happened to me yet. Of course it is a taste preference but after 24hrs in the decanter, especially if you have drink some of the VP, the oxydation surface is wider and the process quicker; I find that the VP lose all its freshness that makes it so sensual to drink.But going too far, say 24 hours of decanting time, IMO, serves only to strip the Port of its true beauty while dumbing down the tannins and negating too much of the structural componenets of the wine ... for the sake of having something softer first and foremost, then (arguably) better in terms of aromatic and flavor profiles.
Concerning what the selection of Port in a Port bar, I don't think it would be viable to have the same selection of VP for daily pour as there is for tawny type of port. VP is expensive and people would feel they didn't had enough for their money if they'd drink a 7 days old VP. As for tawny, even after 2 weeks they are still giving good pleasure to the drinker, probably less complex but still enjoyable because in tawny the balance between sugar and acidity is kept longer then with Vintage.
Vintage Port though some are very pricey remains THE BEST QPR on the market of quality wine. Ask yourself how much a Chateau Latour would cost if he would release his wine only 3 times a decade. Have you seen the price for the 2000,2003 and 2005 will be even higher!!! These are crazy prices. VP remain the best QPR in quality wines and you'll have the same pleasure, in absolute, to drink the Latour 2000 and the taylor 2000 in 40 years.
Living the dream and now working for a Port company
The most FAQ I receive by email is about how to and how long to .. decant bottles of Port. I am not exaggerating when I tell you that I receive between 15-40 emails a week, every week for years now ... with this question.
Back before the holidays, I decided that enough was enough and the few hours a week that I dedicate to responding to emails on just this one topic, could best be spent on getting my newsletter out on time.
With that in mind, I decided to sit down and write an article "The Hersh Method" which clearly delineates the specifics involved in decanting bottle-aged Port wine. It discusses the traditional methods and my own procedures. So from now on, when I receive one of the daily emails, I'll just send a quick link to the article. Now why the heck did it take me YEARS to do this?
Doh!
Back before the holidays, I decided that enough was enough and the few hours a week that I dedicate to responding to emails on just this one topic, could best be spent on getting my newsletter out on time.
With that in mind, I decided to sit down and write an article "The Hersh Method" which clearly delineates the specifics involved in decanting bottle-aged Port wine. It discusses the traditional methods and my own procedures. So from now on, when I receive one of the daily emails, I'll just send a quick link to the article. Now why the heck did it take me YEARS to do this?
Doh!
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
This is a bit off-topic, but I did write in a different thread that an unfiltered LBV was better the day after the bottle was opened.
In retrospect, I can now understand why: I bought the bottle, brought it home, which meant a lot of shaking and stirring, and opened it almost immediately, without letting the wine set properly.
Obviously the wine was not in the best conditions, as I said at the time it seemed disconnected! The day after, it was indeed better - not because of the aeration time but because it had had time to recover from all the shaking!
Why wonder many people (inexperienced ones, clearly) make similar mistakes?
In retrospect, I can now understand why: I bought the bottle, brought it home, which meant a lot of shaking and stirring, and opened it almost immediately, without letting the wine set properly.
Obviously the wine was not in the best conditions, as I said at the time it seemed disconnected! The day after, it was indeed better - not because of the aeration time but because it had had time to recover from all the shaking!
Why wonder many people (inexperienced ones, clearly) make similar mistakes?
Rui,
That is what is called, "travel shock" and it is from the wine being subjected to being shaken and stirred.
Seriously, it is different than "bottle shock" which takes place when a bottle has just been filled, corked and capsuled.
The former is very prevalent with bottle-aged Ports as the sediment gets stirred up and causes the wine to look cloudy and taste funny. Just standing up a bottle or walking a couple of feet won't hurt it, but take it on an airplane with you and open the VP that same day or within a few days and you'll clearly taste the difference. I don't think that is the case for Ports wthout sediment though.
That is what is called, "travel shock" and it is from the wine being subjected to being shaken and stirred.
Seriously, it is different than "bottle shock" which takes place when a bottle has just been filled, corked and capsuled.
The former is very prevalent with bottle-aged Ports as the sediment gets stirred up and causes the wine to look cloudy and taste funny. Just standing up a bottle or walking a couple of feet won't hurt it, but take it on an airplane with you and open the VP that same day or within a few days and you'll clearly taste the difference. I don't think that is the case for Ports wthout sediment though.
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com
Re: Extended time of DECANTING Port
Any new thoughts or theories on this topic?
Ambition driven by passion, rather than money, is as strong an elixir as is Port. http://www.fortheloveofport.com