Does tawny develop/mature on bottle?

[Henrik Lilja]

Does colheita or tawny with age (10, 20, 30, 40< years) develop/mature on bottle? NO many would say - thats the "rule"! No development/maturing when "leaving" pipe to bottle. :devil:

This summer (jun 2009) I was part of a group (32) from Denmark (The Danish Port Wine Club est. 1981) that made a visit to Niepoort. Dirk van der Niepoort had arranged a great tasting which - he said - would change our view towards tawny - spooky He wouldn't say more...

First we had the vintage port 2007 - great potential. Estimated 95/96p.

Then we had the following 3 port wines blind:

Niepoort vintage port 1983:
About 50% of the group thought it was tawny!
96p

Niepoort colheita 1981 (bottled 1997):
Most agreed that this was colheita. But that was about all we could agree on. Some even said back from the 1940-1950-1960!
97p

Niepoort 20 years (bottled 1983):
The grand surprise of the evening. What is this? Tawny for sure - but colheita or...? Only 1 person got i right - and only 2 other persons thought it was not a colheita
This port wine was bottled 26 years ago. Many from the group have tasted the Niepoort 20 years (not on bottle for decades) before - and there was no doubt at all - this port wine was different - some kind of development/maturing could not be denied. It had notes from a orange liqueur, thick, raffined, lively - you just wished your glass would never empty
97/98p

Dirk van der Niepoort dislike these common "rules". He likes to prove a different point - to provoke! And he did. He didn't say it directly - but when he said, that he would change our view towards tawny - I think his point was, that tawny actually can "develop/mature" after being bottled.

I must say - I agree - at least I think? This 20 years, bottled 26 years ago, had changed. And it had changed into something very exciting - whether one would call it "development", "maturing" or something else - one must accept - something did "happen" during all these years - and it was good Niepoort for a great evening.

Best regards
Henrik Lilja
Member of The Danish Port Wine Club est. 1981

[Andy Velebil]

Henrik,

I moved this to the main Port Forum even though there are some tasting notes in it. This is a great question you raise and one that I am interested in getting some feedback from some of our newer members, and old ones too, on the topic. It will get more views here and hopefully generate more feedback in this Forum.

There are now a number of people here who have experience in tasting bottled matured tawny's. So I do hope they and others chime in with their experiences and thoughts about the subject. I'll add my later, after others have had a chance to speak.

[Glenn E.]

From the examples I have encountered, they clearly do develop and/or mature in bottle. The real question is whether or not they improve over time in the bottle, and I think the answer to that is going to vary from person to person.

There are certain aspects of a Tawny's maturation in bottle that I like - for one, the acidity seems to subside a little bit. (Chemically, the level of acidity does not change as the Port ages, but the way it is perceived can change.) But typically the aromatics also subside some, and for most people that's going to count as a negative.

I was lucky enough to share in a Niepoort 30-yr Old Tawny that was bottled in 1987 - so 22 years of bottle age. The TN can be found here.

[Roy Hersh]

Actually, there was a very solid and recent thread about this very topic in the Port Basics area.

Back about five or six years ago, I think 2003 to be exact, Dirk came right out and told me very directly that he believed that Colheitas definitely do age in the bottle. He reitterated this to us at another tasting I attended with him in 2004, in Miami Florida. Here was our lineup of Niepoort's that day, on a Sunday morning just before 10 a.m.

1987 Vintage

1987 Colheita

2000 Secundum

2001 Secundum

2000 Vintage

1994 Colheita

1988 Colheita

1979 Colheita

1977 Garrafeira

1962 Colheita

1952 Garrafeira

1934 Colheita

1900 Colheita

1863 Colheita

2003 Cask Samples

[Henrik Lilja]

Roy,

Must say - that's what I call a "tasting" - what a suite

Well - I can conclude, that I interpretated Dirk correctly - at least he thinks, that colheitas age in bottle - what about tawny with age (10,20,30,40<)?

Roy - your opinon - do you think, that tawny (colheita, tawny with age) age/develop/mature in bottle?


Best regards,
Henrik

[Roy Hersh]

Henrik,

Here is the other thread going on with the identical theme. You'll find my answers there.

http://www.fortheloveofport.com/ftlopfo ... 36&start=0

[Moses Botbol]

Yes, they age, but does their aging improve the what's in the bottle? I'd say not really.

[Henrik Lilja]

Been redaing other posts on the subject.

And I think there is not an "YES" or "NO" answer to this question.

No doubt that tawny will "change" on bottle if cellared - but as Moses points out - will they improve to the better?

I think - that some will - others will not. Some will change - not nessecarily improve - but change to something different that still tastes good. Tawny, when bottled, is meant to drink now - but should one forget some bottles in the cellar - locate them some decades later - one might be up for a very pleasent surprise?

[Moses Botbol]

The vibrancy and freshness disappears when tanwys are aged in the bottle. My only concrete evidence to this is from two bottles of 10 & 20 year Ramos Pinto I had. They were bottled around '97 and I opened last year. They retained the sweetness and color, but lost just about everything else into a simple tawny.

I can comment on Colheitas aging in the bottle as Dirk comments and Niepoort bottles their Garrafeira with T-corks. I would like to try their most recent Garrafeira next to one that has 20-30 years of bottle aging. I wonder how much of the vibrancy disappears from the Garrafeira process, as the few Garrafeiras I have had were all wonderful, but missed that inital freshness like on a new bottle of tawny.

I assume there are very few who are expert with Garrafeira, especially in USA as finding bottles are like finding hen's teeth...

[Glenn E.]

The vibrancy and freshness disappears when tanwys are aged in the bottle.

I'll agree with "tends to fade" but not with a firm "disappears." I've had a sufficient number of bottle-aged tawnies to be able to say with confidence that the vibrancy and freshness does not, as a rule, disappear. Either that or some of the bottles I've had must have been nearly undrinkably vibrant when they were originally bottled!

And as I've mentioned, some of us prefer milder acidity so if it seems to become slightly muted or appears to recede in some way during bottle aging that could be considered a good thing.

That they change during bottle aging is, I think, undisputable. Whether they improve, simply change to something different, or fade is a matter of taste.