's -> why?

[Henrik Lilja]

Why is it that port producers they use the 's ???
Graham's instead of just Graham? Fonseca's and not just Fonseca? Sometimes they use 's sometimes they don't - quite confusing!

When did this start - and why? I mean - the Bordeaux 1. cru Latour - it's not called Latour's - or what about Barca Velha being named Barca Velha's - pure nonsense.

I just don't get it - why this special "port rule" with the 's - it's just nonsense! :wall:


Best regards
Henrik Lilja
Member of the The Danish Port Wine Club est. 1981

[Derek T.]

Henrik,

I think this is a legacy from the British. The 's is known as a "possessive" - a simplistic explanation being that the thing that follows it belongs to the word that preceeds it. So...

Graham's 1991 Vintage Port is the 1991 Vintage Port belonging to the house of Graham.

The laptop that I am typing this message into is "Derek's laptop"

I can't explain why some producers use the possessive and some don't but there is no technical flaw in the grammar.

Derek

[Henrik Lilja]

Hi Derek

I do understand that the producer would like to emphasize that this exactly vintage port is produced by for example Fonseca - hence Fonseca's vintage port. But - still it's not consistent:

Fonseca vintage port 1977 = including the 's
http://www.grape-nutz.com/soldiers/labe ... fons77.gif

Fonseca vintage port 1985 = NOT indcluding the 's
http://images.jjbuckley.com/wineImages/ ... 881522.jpg

It would make some kind of sense if Fonseca used the 's when producing "Guimaraens". Like - this is Fonseca's Guimaraens - but no - no logic:
http://www.vinopoliswineclub.co.uk/ProdImages/533_l.jpg

It's actually possible to find different labels from the same vintage with both 's and without - outstanding :wall:

If you hold in your hand a bottle vintage port from for example Fonseca - it should not be nessecary to emphazise this with a 's - I do think that the buyer understands, that this bottle vintage port is produced by Fonseca :o

Well thanks for your explanation - still in my opinion this doesn't make sense. I do agree that this must be a "British lagacy" - but most producers - with no Biritish history - also copy this way of label-presenting. It is nonsense! But then again - who cares - port still taste good

Best regards
Henrik

[Elyas Beria]

It's definitely a Britishism. There are loads of English and Irish products that are named in a similar manner and maddeningly enough a lot of them have lost their apostrophe along the way. Like Chivers jam, Lyons tea, and Odlums porridge while other products have retained their apostrophe like McCann's oatmeal, Barry's tea, McVitie's digestives, Scott's porridge, Bassett's liquorice all sorts, etc. A plausible explanation might be that since the companies were started by the British they probably started with the apostrophe and as the families become several generations removed from England and basically became expat Brits living in Portugal they probably lost the apostrophe (or as the operations become more corporate rather than family-run). Perhaps I should try to look at images of old labels to see if this theory holds water before putting it forward but I'm too lazy. :)

And there probably aren't any people within the port houses, as a company, that are looking at consistency in labeling. Probably one year William orders the labels and the next year it's his brother Fredrick's turn and he leaves out the apostrophe and the following year William does it again, etc. (These names are fictitious to protect the guilty.)

But Fonseca is an interesting case because I believe it's a Portuguese house and not a British one so perhaps they are just mirroring the British convention when using the apostrophe...

[Eric Menchen]

Some of the shippers seem more consistent than others. In shippers with variation, I wonder if label variation is based on the importer, distributor, or intended destination country. I note that the 1977 "Fonseca's" and this 1983 "Fonseca's" (both Oporto bottled) both have the importer or distributor printed on the label. A Google image search for "taylor vintage port" will turn up "Taylor," "Taylor's," "Taylors," and "Taylor Fladgate," the last of which is for the U.S. market, and the first "Taylors" I see is a UK bottling.

[Derek T.]

But Fonseca is an interesting case because I believe it's a Portuguese house and not a British one so perhaps they are just mirroring the British convention when using the apostrophe...

Although Fonseca started out as a Portugues house the company was based in London from as early as the 1830s and has been owned by Taylor Fladgate since just after WWII.

I think most of the inconsistency will appear on labels prior to 1970 as many will have been produced by the wine merchants who bottled them in the UK.

Another oddity, this time Portuguese rather than British, is the inconsistent use of the hyphen in the name Ramos-Pinto. Whilst in the Douro and VNG last month I noticed that this is still inconsistent today with many of the company signs on billboards, properties and vineyards displaying as either "Ramos Pinto" or "Ramos-Pinto". Very odd.

[Elyas Beria]

I think the explanation that the importer/distributor/wine merchant does the labeling makes the most sense. Aren't the inconsistencies what makes life more interesting? Maybe if the Germans made Port we wouldn't have this problem...

[Roy Hersh]

It began with the Port Shipper's, as if you look at the old OWC (I have my office paneled with them) the possessive pronouns with apostrophe crimes (where is JDAW1 when he's needed?) is on the vast majority. Exceptions I see in my office are:

Sandeman
Fonseca


Ooops, The Fonseca 1985 panel reads that way while the wooden panel reads:

Fonseca's
Finest 1977
Vintage Porto


All of the others I see except Broadbent (duh) have used apostrophes.

As we've been developing the new area for tasting notes, we've dealt with this by leaving off all of the " 's " at the end of the shipper's name.

[Derek T.]

It began with the Port Shipper's, as if you look at the old OWC (I have my office paneled with them) the possessive pronouns with apostrophe crimes (where is JDAW1 when he's needed?) is on the vast majority.

The Apostrophe Sheriff is currently engaged in moving from NYC to Paris but his Deputy is here!

"It began with the Port Shipper's, as if you look at the old OWC" - I think you intended to use a plural (Shippers) rather than the possessive (Shipper's) Mr Hersh

[Roy Hersh]

Guilty as charged your honor. But according to JDAW, I am very rarely caught in the act with an apostrophe crime ... so I may escape the severity of this faux pas with some leniency, due to good behavior.