The Port "shut down" ...

[Roy Hersh]

You'll often see that phrase, or -- it is in a "dumb phase" or even, that Port has really "closed up."

This is something that is hard to pin down. Why and when it happens is not easy to explain. Some people don't even believe this really exists.

What do you think?

[Eric Ifune]

I most certainly believe in it. For me, the dumb phase is when the complex chemical reactions of aging are in flux. The primary and secondary aromas and flavors are disappearing, but the tertiary ones haven't developed yet. I also think barometric pressure also has an affect causing wines to be closed. Volatilization of aroma and flavor components are inhibited.

[Mahmoud Ali]

I certainly believe that wines will "shut down" or enter a "dumb phase" so I see no reason why it shouldn't happen to port. The only difference is that the sheer intensity of port and the residual sugar it makes it delicious to drink at almost any stage.

Cheers...............Mahmoud.

[Luc Gauthier]

Can we say with a certain degree of exactitude that VP with less than 5 yrs of age would not normaly have entered a dumb phase ?
To follow up , If SQVP's mature at a different rate than VP's , would they have a shorter dumb phase ?

[Roy Hersh]

Luc,

You know my age and for over half of that I've been opening or participating in the tasting of Port bottles ... literally thousands of bottles ... of all ages and categories.

From my understanding of the "condition", there IS NO science to back up why or when a bottle of wine will enter or exit a dumb phase. Having spoken to many winemakers and Port makers about this over the years, the one thing I've learned is that they all agree on one thing ... they only believe this happens with red wines. I found that fascinating but it was solely from empirical evidence and nothing based on scientific fact.

So nobody can say when a particular wine is going into a dumb phase and when I've read people on say things like: "1994s are seemingly entering a dumb phase (or seem closed up)" I just keep my mouth shut. It is impossible to prove that an entire cross section of VPs from a specific vintage are all closing down at the same time ... it just doesn't work that way.

Also, I can't tell you if a SQVP or VP would tend to go dumb earlier or later than one another ... because again, although there really is a dumb phase ... not every wine or Port will go through one.

Now, I'll go out on a limb and just say that when I do notice a dumb phase ... I have typically witnessed in Vintage Ports (when it does occur) it has been at around 8-12 years after bottling (not after the vintage ... add 2 years for that ). But again, that is just what I have noticed and your experience may vary and will be just as accurate as mine, for your own palate.

I am considering adding this as the next A QUESTION FOR THE PORT TRADE, just so we have professional responses on the record.

[Glenn E.]

I am considering adding this as the next A QUESTION FOR THE PORT TRADE, just so we have professional responses on the record.

I think that's an excellent idea!

I'd also like to hear what they think about Colheitas. Not whether or not they improve with age in the bottle, but whether or not there is a specific time frame for a "dumb phase" similar to what VP goes through. From my limited experience it seems to start a couple of years after bottling and "wears off" after 8-10 years in bottle, after which the changes are bottle age related.

[Andy Velebil]

I do think that many VP's shut down starting around the 7ish year mark. I most recently am seeing it on the 2000 VP's where a good many of the top ones are closing up. Why wine shuts down, I have no idea. And as Roy mentioned no one can explain why either. It's like bottle shock (or travel shock), no one can explain it but it does happen. Which is why most wineries hold back their wines for a period of time after being bottled so they have time to recover. I'm sure one day someone will finally figure out the million dollar question, but until then all we have is emperical evidence.

It is impossible to prove that an entire cross section of VPs from a specific vintage are all closing down at the same time ... it just doesn't work that way.

Well we really don't know that for a fact. It is strange that many top end VP's start closing up around the 7-8 year mark then start to come out of that at about the same time years later. It very well may have something to do with the region, the vines, type of grapes, soil, winemaking techniques, etc. But again, there is no scientific evidence to prove or disprove it, just lots of empirical evidence. They could all "close down" but at different levels of closure which would be why some seemingly don't shut down that hard or at all and why some close up tight as a snare drum.

This would make an interesing question for the trade.

[Mahmoud Ali]

Many years ago there was an article in Wine Spectator about this very subject. Winemakers from prominent estates were asked about when their wines "shut down" and they each had something different to say about their wines. All agreed that there was a time to drink their wine young, that there was a period when the wines were closed and best avoided, and a time when it regained its drinking pleasure.

Each winemaker had a different timeline for their wines, a longer or shorter early drinking window, different closed-down periods, and different maturity plateaus. It was an interesting article, especially so hearing from the winemaker themselves.

By the same token, Roy is correct in saying that one can't talk about a whole vintage "shutting down." I think that each producer has a different style and profile and each port will have a different life ahead of it.

Andy, speaking of "bottle shock" there was a columnist in the back pages of the Wine Spectator many years ago who tried to see if bottle shock really exists. He took two bottles of fancy Bordeaux, one nicely rested and the other one attached to some kind of motion device that kept the bottle in rocking for hours if not days. Then the two wines were served blind to see if there was a difference. If memory serves me right he and the other participants weren't able to tell the difference. Despite that "evidence" in the column I still prefer to let a wine settle at home for a few months or weeks before I drink it. Maybe its the bottle shock, maybe its the time spent in bottle, but I do prefer the bottle that has "rested" at home.

Wines and ports are funny things, every one of them marches to their own drumbeat. We mortals have to keep opening bottles at different times in their evolution to make sense of what they try to tell us. Its a lifelong lesson and one that I am happy to undertake.

Cheers..............Mahmoud.

[Luc Gauthier]

So If I understand , a dumb phase is :
- a natural development in some
- the lack of one doesn't mean bad wine
- a chemical reaction

[Roy Hersh]

I sent this out today to 22 people in the trade. We'll see how many respond as Porto is getting busy. There is quite a buzz there over the 2007s right now. As I am sure everyone is aware, they just had the Essencia do Vinho tasting and there is a "fever" in the air. Once we get word of some declarations, it should be buzzing. We have not seen a generally declared vintage (except the release of the 2003s, since came along. So this should be really fun.

[Kurt Wieneke]

When it comes to wine and port, dumb happens. To add to the confusion, I think it's also true that some wines shut down 'harder' than others.

[Andy Velebil]

Yes, it is strange that some shut down while others don't seem to at all or at a considerable less amount, even if from the same vintage.

[Roy Hersh]

I must say that the response to this particular question was impressive and the answers are very informative with great insights, differing opinions and people in the trade who will be new to almost all on this Forum.

[Al B.]

As a variation on the original question, do you have any views on whether port goes through multiple phases of being shut-down?

From my tasting experience, I have noticed with some ports that I taste several times a year (such as Warre 1983) that my notes and scores are consistent over a period of 12 months or so, but when I look over 5 years or so, I see an increase or decrease or decrease and then an increase.

This has happened with several ports. Has anyone else seen this phenomenon?

[Moses Botbol]

This must happen as we all talk about it. Why, I do not know and that’s why I turn to these forums to learn…

This also happens with cigars that they go through a “sick phase” after 1-2 year aging they come around in the 3-4 years. Cigars go through a few phases where after usually 5 years, it is the first aged phase, then, 10-15 then 20+.

[Andy Velebil]

As a variation on the original question, do you have any views on whether port goes through multiple phases of being shut-down?

From my tasting experience, I have noticed with some ports that I taste several times a year (such as Warre 1983) that my notes and scores are consistent over a period of 12 months or so, but when I look over 5 years or so, I see an increase or decrease or decrease and then an increase.

This has happened with several ports. Has anyone else seen this phenomenon?

Good question Alex,

I surely woudn't rule it out and I have no idea if they do are not. It is very possible they do go through some shorter periods of shutting down later in life. But I would say if they do, it is for a far shorter time period and they don't completely shut down like they can when young. Wine is a living breathing thing, so it can behave strangely at times.

But who knows, maybe some of these older Ports are just in a funky place again but are then talked about as being "past their peak" now.

[Moses Botbol]

As a variation on the original question, do you have any views on whether port goes through multiple phases of being shut-down?

From my tasting experience, I have noticed with some ports that I taste several times a year (such as Warre 1983) that my notes and scores are consistent over a period of 12 months or so, but when I look over 5 years or so, I see an increase or decrease or decrease and then an increase.

This has happened with several ports. Has anyone else seen this phenomenon?

Are they from the same case? Do you think your ratings are subject to the moment? I think my scorings may swing a little depending on the other Port being served, and if no other Port is being served, my score might be higher.

[Roy Hersh]

I agree with Moses' implication that it depends on the source to determine if it is bottle variation or if all from the same case (bottle variation can still apply) how far apart they were consumed in terms of weeks/months/years.

Interesting question and I don't think there is any evidence to prove it or disprove that this does happen.