Rationale for your interest in LBV port?

[Michael Hann]

I'm a newcomer to drinking port. My main rationale for my interest in LBV port is that I can go to the store, buy a bottle, and drink it this weekend (or tonight!). Standard ruby and ruby reserve can also be drunk immediately, but perhaps the LBV is better quality. A 1997, 2000, 2003, or 2007 VP I might buy during the same visit, however, I may reasonably decide to stow away to improve for another 10-20 years or more.

What is the rationale for the interests of others in LBV ports? Are you buying as a strategy to stretch a limited port budget -- aiming at getting 75% of the excellence of a VP at 25% of the price? Are you buying mainly unfiltered LBVs, laying them down for 5-10 years or are you drinking them pretty soon after you buy them? What about bottle matured unfiltered LBVs? What do you think about these -- just letting the shippers age these wines in bottle so you don't have to, shortening the time you wait before opening these, or are these substantively different in kind from an "equivalent" unfiltered LBV that you have matured yourself? I'm interested in any thoughts on this subject.

[Moses Botbol]

LBV’s offer a good quality product a decent prices. It’s hard to find VP’s under $25 that are great and crusted port is pretty rare in USA. I would prefer crusted to LBV, but since I have seen just a few brands of crusted in the market; LBV it is.

[Glenn E.]

There are two kinds of LBV, and each serves a different purpose (to me).

Filtered LBVs are for drinking right now. You buy it, you open it, you drink it. Yum! What's not to like? I find that the best filtered LBVs, such as the 2003 Taylor Fladgate, are vastly superior to the best Ruby Reserves yet the price is similar.

Unfiltered LBVs, often labeled "traditional" instead of unfiltered, are more like Vintage Ports in that you'd normally want to let them age in bottle for a few years before drinking them. They're certainly ready to drink right away - that's one of the reasons for LBVs in the first place - but unfiltered LBVs improve with some age in bottle. They typically don't need anywhere near as much time as Vintage Port, though, which makes them excellent mid-term drinkers. And like Moses said, unfiltered LBVs are usually a little more expensive than the best Ruby Reserves but cheaper than the least expensive Vintage Ports. And they are often higher in quality than those same VPs.

So if you were going to create a brand new cellar starting from scratch today, I'd recommend that you buy a few filtered LBVs for near term drinking, a few unfiltered LBVs for mid term drinking, and then Vintage Ports to hold for the long term. (Colheitas and Tawnies with an Indication of Age are generally intended to be consumed shortly after bottling, so unless you're a crazy person like me there's no need to hold stocks of them in your cellar.)

[Michael Hann]

Glenn E.

Great and informative reply. Any comments on "bottle matured unfiltered LBV?" Is this a different sort of offering versus unfiltered LBV or is this the same as unfiltered LBV, with the exception that the shipper has courteously done some of your bottle aging for you? Any rule of thumb for how much bottle age one ought to give to an unfiltered LBV, or is this just a matter of when one gives in to temptation and pops the bottle open!

[Moses Botbol]

The are the same. Some are hard to tell whether they are filtered or not, but I think the labels are getting better.

The unfiltered LBV's will have a driven cork and filtered has a "t-cork".

Most are very casual when it comes to drinking LBV. As nice as it is, it's not generally the port you save for decades down the road.

Warre, Noval, Niepoort, Ferreira, Ramos Pinto all make great unfiltered LBV's that are worth looking for.

[Glenn E.]

As Moses said, they're the same thing. Some shippers keep their unfiltered LBVs in their own cellars for a few years before releasing them, while others go ahead and release them right after they've been bottled. In either case, "bottle matured" just refers to the fact that the bottle has been in someone's cellar for a while, possibly some of it at the lodge in Vila Nova de Gaia.

The oldest LBV I have is a 1995 that I bought simply because it was that old. For me, an LBV is something to drink when I feel like drinking a young Port but don't want to commit infanticide on a bottle that I should keep my hands off of for a couple more decades. Otherwise known as a Cellar Defender.

[Derek T.]

Michael,

There are some differences that you should be aware of:

Filtered LBV is what it says, a vintage wine that is usually bottled 4-6 years after the harvest which has been fined and filtered before bottling. It is intended to be drunk immediately. Although it will keep for some time in bottle it will not devleop in the same way as an unfiltered wine. It will certainly "change" if kept for an extended period, but probably not for the better.

Unfiltered LBV is again just what it says. The wine is matured in cask in the same way and for the same time as the filtered variant but it can be cellared for years or even decades and will improve as it matures.

Bottle Matured LBV is the same as Unfiltered LBV but the shipper has done some of the work for us by ageing the wine in bottle before it is released. I am not sure how long they have to do this to use this designation but perhaps someone from the trade can chime in on that? What I do know is that the Bottle Matured LBVs that I see regularly in the UK today are from 1999, suggesting that they are released at around 10 years of age.

Traditional LBV is, I believe, now outlawed by the IVDP as a description and has been replaced by the two immediately preceeding styles.

Derek

[Eric Menchen]

I bought some Portal LBV in the recent Portunity, but in general don't buy much LBV. If I had tasted more of the VP out there, perhaps I would stick to LBV for inexpensive drinking; but I find it more interesting to try low priced VP. Sure, they might not all be great, but I can't recall any stinkers. Maybe if I get a bad $20-30 VP I'll switch to just LBV and more expensive VP, but I'm having too much fun with the VP.

[Roy Hersh]

For me it is simple, I don't have to worry about decanting and can pop and pour in most cases, but ultimately it boils down to QPR. Very tasty juice for sitting and sipping. I have a bottle of Dow 2004 LBV open right now. Will wait until after dinner (don't want to pick up my daughter at school with alc on my breath) to sip some. Looking forward to this youngster.

[Kurt Wieneke]

LBV is a wood port, so if you are averse to a wooded wine or the smell that the barrel may impart, then this is to be considered. I like LBV's because they can be opened and consumed earlier. OTOH, I'm not always in the mood for wood in my port on a winter's night.

[Andy Velebil]

LBV is a wood port, so if you are averse to a wooded wine or the smell that the barrel may impart, then this is to be considered. I like LBV's because they can be opened and consumed earlier. OTOH, I'm not always in the mood for wood in my port on a winter's night.

Kurt,
Actually an LBV is considered a Ruby (bottle-aged) Port. A wood Port would be something like an tawny with an indication of age, Colheita, etc. One shouldn't get much wood notes on a young LBV since they are usually held in very large wood tonnels that can be up to 100+ years old, so they are quite neutral. however, I have gotten some cedar type notes in older LBV's

[Roy Hersh]

Michael,

Thanks for your participation. What I enjoy most is having your witty topics put into very topical threads that create excellent discussions. We can never have too many new topics and I applaud you for how many you have brought to since your joining us!


Moses wrote:

Warre, Noval, Niepoort, Ferreira, Ramos Pinto all make great unfiltered LBV's that are worth looking for.

I would add to his list: Quinta do Crasto, Quinta do Portal, Quinta do Javali, Warre, Quinta do Tedo and occasionally, Taylor and Dow.



Derek wrote:

Traditional LBV is, I believe, now outlawed by the IVDP as a description and has been replaced by the two immediately preceeding styles.

It is my belief (from memory ... Eric M. is the IVDP regulatory checker here) that Unfiltered OR Traditional (Tradicional) may be used interchangeably on LBV and that the regulation change of nomenclature of special categories in 2005, did not replace or outlaw the word Traditional. Eric?



Kurt wrote:

LBV is aged in wood port, so if you are averse to a wooded wine or the smell that the barrel may impart, then this is to be considered. I like LBV's because they can be opened and consumed earlier. OTOH, I'm not always in the mood for wood in my port on a winter's night.

As Andy correctly pointed out, LBV may be aged in wood, but it is definitely categorized as a bottle-aged Port or in the Ruby class. I am not so sure that it is easy for most people to detect wood in LBVs, as the wood used is old and neutral, although it will impart some minor nuances on the nose and palate ... more so from the oxidative nature in the way an LBV begins its life, imo.



Andy wrote:

Actually an LBV is considered a Ruby (bottle-aged) Port. A wood Port would be something like an tawny with an indication of age, Colheita, etc. One shouldn't get much wood notes on a young LBV since they are usually held in very large wood tonnels that can be up to 100+ years old, so they are quite neutral. however, I have gotten some cedar type notes in older LBV's.

I agree with your initial premise about the category and the neutrality of the old wood. However, with aging in balseiros or toneis (plural of tonnel) I am wondering why an older untiltered LBV would show more wood character than a younger one? I realize a young unfiltered LBV can be very filled with fruit, but either the oak would be showing early ... it is not something that would develop with time in the bottle. You have me confused.

[Derek T.]

However, with aging in balseiros or toneis (plural of tonnel) I am wondering why an older untiltered LBV would show more wood character than a younger one? I realize a young unfiltered LBV can be very filled with fruit, but either the oak would be showing early ... it is not something that would develop with time in the bottle. You have me confused.

I'm speculating here but it may be that LBV from the early years of it's commercial production may have been aged in smaller tonnels than are typically used today, simply because the volume that was sold would have been much less in those early years. Is it possible that this led to the early LBVs having more exposure to the wood than their modern equivalents?

[Andy Velebil]

I realize a young unfiltered LBV can be very filled with fruit, but either the oak would be showing early ... it is not something that would develop with time in the bottle. You have me confused.

It may not develop in the sense of fruit fading or changing, but it will develop (show) as other things change, namely the rich fruit that starts to fade and allows other nuances to be more easily detected. I've occasionally found these cedar notes as the primary fruit fades and allows some of the secondary characteristics to show which are initally masked by the rich youthful fruit of a young Port. But keep in mind this has been with older LBV's and not young ones. When I've noticed it, it tends to be very faint.

[Roy Hersh]

Cool, that is certainly plausible. Thanks Andy.

[Kurt Wieneke]

Kurt,
Actually an LBV is considered a Ruby (bottle-aged) Port. A wood Port would be something like an tawny with an indication of age, Colheita, etc.

Not sure about that Andy. I'll quote Mayson here from "Port and the Douro". I realize that he may not be the authority and that the IVDP definition may trump this.

p. 197 -
"Port: A Basic Characterization

Wood-Matured Ports
All ruby, tawny, and white ports fall into this category, including tawnies with an indication of age, colheitas, reserve port and the majority of LBV's. So-called "wood ports" are generally bottle with a stopper cork as opposed to a driven cork.

Bottle-Matured Ports
All vintage ports, single-quinta vintage ports, crusted ports, and unfiltered LBV's fall into this category."

[Glenn E.]

Mayson seems to have derived his definition from the type of cork used to stopper the bottle. It seems to me that a much better definition would be the amount of time spent in wood (and the type of wood/barrel used)... thus earning the Port the title of "wood aged." The fact that he separates filtered and unfiltered LBVs makes the error even more obvious - they spend the same amount of time in wood, so how can one be wood aged and the other be bottle aged?

Since LBVs spend at least 3 (or is it 4?) years in wood but no more than 6, they're sort of an in-between classification. VP and SQVP spend between 1.5 and 2.5 years in wood. Colheitas and Tawnies with an Indication of Age spend at least 7 years in wood. Further widening that differentiation is the type of barrel used for aging - Colheitas and Tawnies with an Indication of Age are aged in small 550 liter pipas, while LBVs do their aging in much larger tonels (and other large barrels). Even a 7-year old Colheita will be significantly more tawny than a 6-year old LBV due to this difference.

But regardless of the rules, LBVs are clearly Ruby Ports in nature. They may occasionally have some very faint wood-aged characteristics, but by far their primary and secondary characteristics mimic those of Rubies, Ruby Reserves, SQVP, and VP. If you served a 10-yr old VP, a 10-yr old SQVP, a 10-yr old LBV, a 10 Year Old Tawny, and a 10-yr old Colheita to a group of people there is virtually no chance that anyone would confuse the LBV with the two tawnies. But you probably would get some confusion between the LBV and the VP/SQVP unless the drinkers were all very experienced Port enthusiasts.

But back to the original question, I started to enjoy LBVs because they present 90% of the characteristics of a young VP for half the price (or less, depending on the VP you're using for comparison). You can get excellent LBVs in the $20 to $30 range, while a comparable VP could easily be $60 to $80. Yes, there are less expensive VPs, but it's a rare find when a $30 VP is actually superior to a $30 LBV. Since I like young VPs, the occasional LBV lets me experience that bold fruitiness without sacrificing a bottle that could some day become a fantastic 40-yr old and fully mature VP.

[Eric Menchen]

Not sure about that Andy. I'll quote Mayson here from "Port and the Douro". I realize that he may not be the authority and that the IVDP definition may trump this.

The IVDP regulations on special categories don't attempt to characterize LBV as wood-aged vs. bottle-aged, or ruby vs. tawny. It is another just another category like vintage and colheita, none of which are grouped per se.

Section 7 of Article 3, which covers LBVs, gives the requirements for use of the additional wording "bottle matured'
or "aged in the bottle."