Madeira Mixer

[Moses Botbol]

We polished off these bottles last night. The wine of the night was the Terrantez. I've had 3 hours sleep, but wanted to at least post the photo. Discussion will follow.

[Reidar Andersen]

Moses, that 1899 T with AO-SM was a very interesting bottle.. Maybe Anibal sold that to MWC around 1985 and they put the Welsh label on it ??

This discussion has been on for a long time.. So many 1899 T "brands".. How many sources ?? Maybe Peter knows more now...
I managed to get hold of a couple of Borges 1899 T before they run dry.. I was told by MWC January 2000 that their last 1899 T Cossart Gordon was sold 1899. That was also AO-SM...


Reidar

[Moses Botbol]

When do think the Terrantez was bottled?

[Reidar Andersen]

Anibal sold a lot of wines to MWC around 1985, and most probably bottled then.. I asked him about this
some years back but I did not any get any answer.. I just looked on my AO-SM bottles 1910 Sercial and 1882 Verdelho
and they have seal numbers 525371 and 527664. I bought them at MWC in 1986 before they were repainted with MWC brand names.
My bottles has only AO-SM brand name..

[Marco D.]

I can't see the photo (photobucket is blocked at my workplace), but I assume the Terrantez is the 1899 Welsh Terrantez? If so, I remember bringing this same bottle to a tasting with Mannie Berk (from the Rare Wine Co) present.

http://www.cellartracker.com/event.asp?iEvent=4235

As I recall, Mannie was of the opinion that all these 1899T's came from Anibal Oliveira, and were sold to other shippers and rebranded with other names.

Do you still have the capsule? If so, is the top branded with MWC or MWA? I was fairly sure mine was branded with MWA, which would imply an older bottling date.

Do you still have the cork? As I recall, mine was very old-looking, certainly older than 20-30 years.

I also remember this wine being atypically sweet for a Terrantez. Did you find the same thing? As I recall, Mannie was doubtful that is was 100% Terrantez.

[Moses Botbol]

I can't see the photo (photobucket is blocked at my workplace), but I assume the Terrantez is the 1899 Welsh Terrantez? If so, I remember bringing this same bottle to a tasting with Mannie Berk (from the Rare Wine Co) present. As I recall, Mannie was of the opinion that all these 1899T's came from Anibal Oliveira, and were sold to other shippers and rebranded with other names.

Do you still have the capsule? If so, is the top branded with MWC or MWA? I was fairly sure mine was branded with MWA, which would imply an older bottling date.

I also remember this wine being atypically sweet for a Terrantez. Did you find the same thing? As I recall, Mannie was doubtful that is was 100% Terrantez.

Yes, you are correct in that this was a the Welsh. I have only had one or two other Terrantez and based on that I would say it was a little sweet, but still had a dry long finish.

The capsule is long gone. I kept the empty bottles, maybe there's something else on the paper sub-label? Will have to take a look.

[Peter Reutter]

Moses, that 1899 T with AO-SM was a very interesting bottle.. Maybe Anibal sold that to MWC around 1985 and they put the Welsh label on it ??

This discussion has been on for a long time.. So many 1899 T "brands".. How many sources ?? Maybe Peter knows more now...
I managed to get hold of a couple of Borges 1899 T before they run dry.. I was told by MWC January 2000 that their last 1899 T Cossart Gordon was sold 1899. That was also AO-SM...


Reidar

This 1899 Terrantez is one of the many wines sold to the MWC by D'Oliveiras in the early 1980ies. Most of these wines were sold in bottle, hence the AO-SM. Later the MWC started removing the AO-SM stencils, I once eyewitnessed this procedure, and as far as I recall it, you once did too, Reidar. The guys from the MWC had to use some terrible smelling paint thinner to do this...
So that means most of these wines would have been bottled before the mid 1980ies, at least 25 years ago, very likely 40+ years ago judging from the two or three cork examples I could take a look at.
This special 1899 Terrantez comes at least under three different brands of the MWC. I have seen "Welsh", "Leacock" and "Cossart", but there are probably even more...
I never had it before, so I am drooling to read the TN!

Peter

[Marco D.]

So that means most of these wines would have been bottled before the mid 1980ies, at least 25 years ago, very likely 40+ years ago judging from the two or three cork examples I could take a look at.

Based on the cork on my bottle I would lean towards the 40+ guess.

This special 1899 Terrantez comes at least under three different brands of the MWC. I have seen "Welsh", "Leacock" and "Cossart", but there are probably even more...

I also had the 1899 Blandy T which I bought at auction. No "AO-SM" stenciling; it had the Blandy's paper label with the "script-like" font. Surprisingly, this one tasted different... quite a bit drier.

[Alan Gardner]

I've had the 1899 many times - 12 bottles were shipped to Ontario (of which one was removed for lab testing).
Because it was close to Christmas and the 'special' wine stores were running out of product (there were only 3 of these in Government controlled Ontario) they were sent to the stores before the lab results were 'validated'.

A Human Rights Act 'potential violation' occurred when an ambitious lab technician discovered 'significant' amounts of a chemical that had been shown to cause skin cancer in rats, yet his attempt to ban the product was overruled (initially). Accordingly a memorandum was sent out to
IMMEDIATELY RETURN THIS PRODUCT SO IT COULD BE DESTROYED.
(incidentally Ontario stll tests for this - the only jurisdiction worldwide that bans it!).

At that time, the computer inventory was updated overnight but, astonishingly, all the bottles had been purchased 'earlier the same day', so there were none left to return!!!!!!!
So, somehow, 11 bottles 'escaped' to potentially cause cancer (ASIDE: The amount of the chemical found to cause cancer on rats when applied directly was equivalent to consuming approximately 20 bottles of the tainted wine a day for 30 years).

I believe I've had between 6 and 8 bottles of this over the years and am aware of the location of 2 more. In all cases it has shown a style slightly sweeter than other Terrantez - but it's a superb wine!
I recall an earlier discussion on this wine where it was speculated (by me) that there was virtually no Terrantez on the island in 1899, so my guess was that it was an earlier Boal that had been topped up with 'the last remaining Terrantez' in 1899, and somehow acqured that description.
Another theory (advanced in the same thread) was that it could be Tinta Negra Mole! And that wouldn't surprise me either.
But, summary - it's a great wine - but hard to believe there's any chance it's Terrantez from 1899!

Edited to add a link to the previous discussion
http://fortheloveofport.com/ftlopforum/ ... 899#p27516

Edited again to add a link to the lab test (for ethyl carbamate, the offending chemical). Products are still being banned (and poured away for this) most recently some old solera sherries. This means we no longer get older fortified wines in Ontario.

http://www.lcbotrade.com/pdf/ISO17025%2 ... tation.pdf

[Marco D.]

I believe I've had between 6 and 8 bottles of this over the years...

Better start the skin cancer treatments soon...

Edited to add a link to the previous discussion
http://fortheloveofport.com/ftlopforum/ ... 899#p27516

Thanks for the link, I forgot about that thread. This board may not get a lot of traffic, compared to the Port board, but the knowledge from the people who frequent this board is a precious resource indeed.

[Alan Gardner]

Better start the skin cancer treatments soon...

Are you implying I'm a rat???????

Of course I am considering volunteering for the study - let's see 20 bottles of 19 C madeira per day for 30 years.. If that includes food and board, I'm in!

[Reidar Andersen]

I join in...

[Moses Botbol]

Room for one more?

[Gary Banker]

Another oddity about the 1899 vintage is that there appears to be only terrantez out there. The list on Madeira Wine Guide has nine different bottlings. Where are the sercial, verdelho, boal, or malvasia? Where there any on any recent auction lists?

[Alan Gardner]

Yes, Gary - that's part of the mystery/scepticism - and I don't recall seeing any more Terrantez produced for many years after either.
Logic suggests that '1899 Terrantez' is extremely unlikely - but my guess is that there is more than a trace of Bual and that it may be up to 30 years older than indicated.
Whatever the 'real story' it's still a magnificent wine.

[Roy Hersh]

You guys are making me thirsty. I can't wait to get back there in a few months!

Thank god for annual visits to the island.

[Reidar Andersen]

I contacted Alex Liddell about this thread and asked for comments. He was not in his home and had no access to books , but he referred to Noel Cossart’s book which I have not looked in for a while.
I have not studied it properly ( I guess you guys can help ) and I found on pages 121-122:
Where Noel Cossart refers to the 1895 T and I will write a short note about what he said…
He tasted a 1895 T and says:
“Since this vine was scarce before phylloxera and was not replanted afterwards, I feel it must be a mixture”

About a 1898 T he also says:
“ Because of the scarcity of Terrantez in the 1890’s this wine either must have been a good deal older than the date it bore or possibly had been blended with some 1898 vintage Verdelho. Andre Simon pronounced it to be “a winsome bastard”.My own notes said : Prominent fine nose , rich and fruity , lacks the bitter finish . It was a particular fine old Madeira but the end was too soft for Terrantez . In fact if had been labeled Verdelho the description would have fitted perfectly”
Well, this is not the 1899 we talk about here, but , but ???

Alex Liddell also tells me the 1899 T is an impressive wine in terms and quality but inclined to question it’s authencity..

Reidar

[Moses Botbol]

So, when I see Terrantez from RWC Historic Series or Broadbent... is it really Terrantez?

[Marco D.]

So, when I see Terrantez from RWC Historic Series or Broadbent... is it really Terrantez?

I do not believe the RWC's bottling is labeled as "Terrantez", but "New Orleans Reserve". I believe it is a blend of Terrantez and high quality Tinta Negra Mole.

I would think there are more Terrantez vines now than in 1899 (which is not saying much), so the "newer" bottlings of Terrantez would indeed be genuine (?)

I finally saw the pic you posted and see you also had the 1927 Bastardo. What did you think of it? I know a lot of people are put off by its austerity... I personally like it.

[Moses Botbol]

I finally saw the pic you posted and see you also had the 1927 Bastardo. What did you think of it? I know a lot of people are put off by its austerity... I personally like it.

The Bastardo is on the drier side of Madeira. I've drank from this bottle a few times over the last year and it's a nice style, but I can see why it perhaps fell to the wayside. The Verdelho or Sercial on either side of Bastardo are more engaging Madeira.