aged Tawnies

[Oleg Osokin]

I'm in despair to get what does really the indication of age on labels of tawny mean. There's always an explanation like "average age of the blend" or "approximation", but is there any strict rule in blending of aged tawnies? Or it's just a style of port to be checked by the IVDP? Anyone??

[Eric Menchen]

There's a good discussion of this in this thread, including the regulations from the IVDP.

[Roy Hersh]

Oleg,

Congratulations for finding us here! It has been a year and a half since we last had anybody from a new country represented on either the Forum or as a newsletter recipient. You represent our 68th country!!!

In about 30 hours from now, you will receive the newsletter which contains an excellent article specifically on Tawny Port that hopefully will clarify this topic for you. I hope you will be patient until it reaches your mailbox.

Thanks for joining us and we hope you will continue to come back and enjoy yourself.

Is there much in the way of Port sold in Russia? I have had some port wine that was produced there, in fact, a memorable bottle from 1945! However, my question is about Port from Portugal.

to

[goncalo devesas]

I remember that I read something about Russia in the Real Companhia Velha history.

I´m checking it now in their website, again, and it seems that they were the first Port Shipper in Russia (1781), increasing a lot the Port sales, when Port was tasted by the royal lips of Catherine, the Russian Empress.

I don´t know if they still so famous in Russia as in that time

[Roy Hersh]

Oleg,

Did you receive your copy. Sorry, that it wound up being for subscribers. If you post here again, I will then send you the .pdf version of the newsletter so you can see the Tawny article. Incentive enough?

[Oleg Osokin]

Thank you guys!
really didn't know I was the first from Russia here
actually, the market is quite young for the trade of Port. First shipments began in the early 90s but the real growth was in 2002-2007,
before that the market was loaded with native port-like wines from the Crimea. It has nothing to do with the real port and hopefully people in Russia will understand this. I work for the company which imports great wines from all over the world including QdNoval, Warre's and Graham's.
We have our sommelier training school which is considered the best in Russia. So, in April I'm starting a new course all devoted to Port and Douro wines.
Guys from Symington group recommended FTLOP as a nice source.

[Moses Botbol]

Welcome. I have had the Malsandra Georgian (sp) "ports" back to the late 19th Century. I think it was 1940 vintage was really good. There's huge Russian population in my neighborhood. Cyrillic is written and spoke at banks and public institutions. So many Russians like sweet wine, I am suprised it took this long to get real port distributed.

[Oleg Osokin]

to be exact:

import of Port to Russia:
2005 - 179 719 bottles
2006 - 208 286 btls.
2007 - 357 247 btls.
2008 - 377 333 btls.

[Moses Botbol]

Wow, that quite an increase in such a short time.

[Oleg Osokin]

well, many russians tend to sweet wines since they had drunk a lot of sweet (and fortified) and off-dry wines from Georgia, Moldova and the Crimea during the Soviet times. After Soviet Union collapsed people wanted to get the same product from these regions but the quality still seems to be poor. We still have a ban on import of georgian wines (of course, owing to political reasons). Now Italy, Chile (God bless 'em), France and Spain are ruling. Some foreign investment is put into russian winemaking in Kuban' region. Nobody knows how it will work, but the fact that there's Patrick Leon (former Mouton-Rothschild, Almaviva and etc) takes part in a project promise well for the future.

[Oleg Osokin]

unfortunatelly, i don't have numbers before 2005. I guess it could even more impressive.

[Eric Menchen]

The IVDP has data for 2005. It probably doesn't capture Port that is first exported to another country and then imported into Russia, however. This table gives volume and value for 2004-2008, inclusive, and shows a significant increase from 2005-2007, but things fell off in 2008.
2004 - 10,000 cases
2005 - 8,000 cases
2006 - 11,000 cases
2007 - 16,000 cases
2008 - 12,000 cases

[Oleg Osokin]

I have no doubt about the numbers from the IVDP, but mine is taken from the russian customs' audit on which I rely more.
I think you're right, data from secondary import is not included into the table of the IVDP.

[Eric Menchen]

Yes, the data are reporting different things, although the trends were in correlation up to 2008. I guess some people found it significantly cheaper to go through an indirect source that year. An alternative explanation that I hesitate to suggest is that some of what was sold in 2008 was not true Port. I merely throw this out as a possibility, not something I have any reason to suspect. I personally own many bottles of Port that were not directly imported into the US from Portugal, but came via other countries (mostly the UK).

[Tom Archer]

Getting back to the original thread, I do feel there is a bit of an issue with these products that ought to be addressed..

The concept of the 'indication of age' tawnies, and the IVDP's definition of them; hails from an age where product descriptions could be a little more economical with the truth than is the case today.

Most countries have laws requiring products to be honestly described - if a British trading standards officer saw a bottle of 10yr tawny, he would expect from the label that it contained port that was ten years old - no more, no less - at the time it was offered for sale.

Clearly this is not normally the case...

I think the IVDP needs to do two things to prevent this blowing up into an embarrassing scandal at some point..

1) Require the labels on the bottles to say Over 10yrs, Over 20yrs etc..

2) Require that the minimum age of the component wines must not be less than the age indicated.

This might cause a shortage of 30yr and 40yr, but better to get the product matched to it's description, than risk damaging the reputation of the port industry as a whole.

- Just my

Tom

[Peter W. Meek]

There is a difference between the name and the object. Check this from "Through the Looking-glass:

. . .
'You are sad,' the Knight said in an anxious tone: 'let me sing you a song to comfort you.'

'Is it very long?' Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day.

'It's long,' said the Knight, 'but very, VERY beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it--either it brings the TEARS into their eyes, or else--'

'Or else what?' said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause.

'Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called "HADDOCKS' EYES."'

'Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?' Alice said, trying to feel interested.

'No, you don't understand,' the Knight said, looking a little vexed. 'That's what the name is CALLED. The name really IS "THE AGED AGED MAN."'

'Then I ought to have said "That's what the SONG is called"?' Alice corrected herself.

'No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The SONG is called "WAYS AND MEANS": but that's only what it's CALLED, you know!'

'Well, what IS the song, then?' said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.

'I was coming to that,' the Knight said. 'The song really IS "A-SITTING ON A GATE": and the tune's my own invention.'
. . .

By analogy:
What it IS, is whatever is in the bottle.
What it is CALLED, is what people call it.
What it is NAMED, is whatever IVDP says it is.
What the NAME is CALLED, is however you say it.

So, despite the label --
What it IS, is something that has been determined to taste like a 10 year old tawny should taste like.
What it is CALLED, is ten-year or ten-year-old-tawny.
What it is NAMED, is (what ever the official IVDP designation is).
What the NAME is CALLED, is (for this forum) (however we translate that into English).

[Tom Archer]

Very eloquent..

..but the products are still in clear contravention of the Trades Descriptions Act 1968 (UK)..

"1.-(l) Any person who, in the course of a trade or business,
(a) applies a false trade description to any goods ; or
(b) supplies or offers to supply any goods to which a false
trade description is applied ;
shall, subject to the provisions of this Act, be guilty of an offence.

~~~

2.-(1) A trade description is an indication, direct or indirect,
and by whatever means given, of any of the following matters
with respect to any goods or parts of goods, that is to say-

~~~

(h) place or date of manufacture, production, processing
or reconditioning

Tom

[Glenn E.]

Well no wonder you guys don't drink more aged Tawnies over there... they're illegal!

All the more for us, so that's fine with me!

[Eric Menchen]

Well no wonder you guys don't drink more aged Tawnies over there... they're illegal!

Yes! Contraband I say, so send it over here for proper disposal.