20yr old tawny

Philip Harvey · Post by **Philip Harvey** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:25 am

My local Morrison's supermarket has several dusty bottles of Dow's 20yr old tawny that have been sitting upright on the bottom shelf of the wine section for some time. The £15 price tag is tempting.

I appreciate the best way to test their provenenace is to buy a bottle and pull the cork, but in general terms, is tawny more hardy than vintage port when it comes to storage? I would have thought that the increased oxidisation resulting from long-term barrel storage would toughen them up a bit but I am only guessing. Does anyone have any ideas?

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:31 am

With Tawny Ports "with an indication of age" (10, 20, 30 and 40 year old) the contact with cork matters not as "T closures" are used. What does matter is freshness. Unlike VP which is evolving in the bottle, a 20 year old Tawny does not change much and is never better than the day it is bottled. It is ready to drink and when they have been kept around for a long time (especially if they are subjected to varying temperatures or direct lighting or sunlight) they will lose freshness. So with this type of Port, you typically would like to purchase and drink the wine as close to the date of bottling as possible. You can find the date of bottling on either the front or back label. If they are more than a few years from bottling date, I would "pass" rather than punt.

Philip Harvey · Post by **Philip Harvey** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:05 pm

Thanks Roy. The year of bottling on the five bottles ranged from 1997 to 2000. I 've taken your advice therefore and 'passed' rather than 'punted'. Same for the Warre LBV 1994 that was standing next to it.

David G. · Post by **David G.** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 3:31 pm

Since the Warre's LBV (traditional style, unfiltered) should improve in the bottle similar to VP, why would you pass on them for age alone, unless you were concerned they had been exposed to warm temperatures?

I have some Warre's LBV's from the 90's I want to know when I should drink.

Roy, how long can the unfiltered Warre's LBV's can age?

Philip Harvey · Post by **Philip Harvey** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:26 am

David

No other reason other than provenance. The fact that the Dow Tawny has been sitting around who knows where for several years since bottling also made me wonder where the LBV has been in the four years since it was released. I appreciate that most LBV will improve with bottle age but Morrisons isn't exactly known for its range of fine wines so I'm guessing that their priority isn't on providing ideal storage conditions either. Only a guess mind.

My original question was really a general one asking whether tawny tends to be a little sturdier than 'ruby' when it comes to storage on account of the time it spends in barrel and the increased oxidisation that must inevitably occur. Roy seems to suggest that they need the same care as anything else once they get into the bottle.

Good question on the aging ability of LBVs. It woudl be interesting to get Roy's (or any one else's) view.

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Mon Mar 20, 2006 9:47 pm

I would have taken a shot and bought one of the LBVs, taken it home and tasted it straight away. If the price was great and the bottle showed well, I'd have bought a half a case or more. The risks involved in buying mature (10-20 year old) LBV is never an issue if storage has taken place at the correct temperature or at least a steady one, and with minimal exposure to light/sun.

I am no expert in aging curves of Unfiltered/Traditional styles of LBV and believe that under 25 years of age and well stored, there wouldn't be any issue with a good producer's bottling. Over 25 years of age, I'd be very careful as to the storage conditions and would never buy more than a single bottle from an unknown source or grouping, without first buying one bottle and trying it ... even if that mean missing out on the entire lot.

Often times, ridiculously low prices are offered to hook in the type of buyer that only cares about price and doesn't know enough to be skeptical or doesn't have a palate that can discern the difference. Either way, bargains are not always what they seem to be. Personally, I'd rather pay MORE and be assured of a great drink in the future. There is nothing as horrid as breaking out a bottle for a group of friends (that was a "bargain") and having a very disappointing tasting experience. That goes for Port, Burgundy, Bordeaux or any other type of wine, IMO.

Al B. · Post by **Al B.** » Tue Mar 21, 2006 1:43 am

Philip

I'm in the category of "buy one and try it" for either of these wines. My nearest supermarket is a Morrisons and - while they are very clearly not known for their range of wines - they do have the occasional surprise. It might be worth buying one of each type of port and tasting them.

I, for one, would be interested to know what the wines are like.

Alex

Philip Harvey · Post by **Philip Harvey** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:50 am

OK OK - you guys talked me in to it. I went into Morrisions last night and bought the last two bottles of the Warre LBV '94 for £11 (U$19) each. One of these is sitting in the decanter at this very moment patiently awaiting my return from work this evening. A brief sniff and taste at 7.00am this morning was very promising and I'm already regretting not buying one of these sooner while their stocks were higher.......

I'll let you know how I get on.

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:57 pm

Yes, please do. I have not had one of the '94 Warre LBVs in two years now!

Gustavo Devesas · Post by **Gustavo Devesas** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:28 pm

:)
Good discussion.
I 've everyday some customers asking me about this small BIG detail,if the LBV improves in the bottle or not?

I was reading most of the answers and you share the same ideas as me,altough I consider that if the IVP - Port Wine Institute says that we've to age a LBV for at least 4 years or 5 or 6 the maximum it's at least to guarantee that this type (LBV) will not improve (as much or completelly) as the VP.
BUT, I would say that I've here some old LBV's like:

Poças LBV 67 - >bottled 1973

Quinta de Baldias LBV 87 - >bottled 1993

Valriz LBV 82 - >bottled 1988

All this Ports with the maximum time in barel (6 years) and they are TRADITIONAL or UNFILTERED and they really had some evolution in the bottle all with many jam and marmelade flavours like some flavours that we can extract from VP...
So I would say that some LBV's with some good structure and good potencial will improve indeed in the bottle altough they are not and never the Ports that were invented for this purpose... that it's guaranted already and only for the VINTAGE!

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:49 pm

Gustavo,

I sent my friends from NY in to see you and sadly you were off. They did hang out with Jean-Phillipe for many hours. Since they speak the language it was very easy.

Anyway, I hope they'll be joining us on one of our trips for harvest time.

Good to see you back here. I was wondering where you went.

Lee Henn · Post by **Lee Henn** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:05 am

I totally agree with Roy regarding the shelf life. I bought a Rozes 40 Year Old Port from a warehouse sale where the storage condition and duration of storage is not known to me. I took it for a wine dinner and the waiteress quickly alerted me to the strange nose and taste which was really off. I somehow cannot explain it as I have not tasted enough ports but it was undrinkable. Sadly I could not return it as it was from a sale... lesson learned.

Cheers,
Henn

Philip Harvey · Post by **Philip Harvey** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:52 am

Roy

Sorry I didn't get back sooner with a tasting note on the Warre LBV '94. It's a bit of a sorry tale.

As I said, I decanted the wine in the morning (Wed March 22nd) before I went to work and a preliminary sniff and sip at 7.00am was very promising. I left half in the decanter and stoppered the rest in a half wine bottle in the fridge.

That evening, I put the kids to bed, lit the fire and put the decanter and glass on the table in the living room in anticipation of a quiet night in. I went upstairs to check on the kids but slipped on the top stair dislocating and fracturing my hip on the way back down.

I just got out of hospital yesterday and when I came home, my wife had cleaned out the decanter, my tasting note had disappeared as had the half bottle in the fridge. Just as well I bought that second bottle.

I'll write up my tasting note for that one next week.

Al B. · Post by **Al B.** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 3:21 am

Ouch.

Philip, I hope you are recovering well. What you did sounds extremely painful.

Cheer yourself up with the thought that Morrisons will probably have some more stock back in when you are next able to go to the shops.

Alex

Derek T. · Post by **Derek T.** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 11:51 pm

Philip,

Let's look at the evidence:

>> 1 bottle of port missing
>> You falling down the stairs

Are you sure you didn't bang your head on the way down and forget the complete sequence of events?

Derek

PS: Joking aside, I hope it's all better soon

Post by **Roy Hersh** » Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:42 pm

Sorry I didn't get back sooner with a tasting note on the Warre LBV '94. It's a bit of a sorry tale.

I hope your recovery is speedy and mostly pain free Phillip!

I had the 1984 Warre LBV this past week and the bottle although seemingly in good condition offered contents that were so highly spirited that it brought more heartburn than pleasure. This was not the case a few years ago. I certainly keep my fingers crossed that your '94 was far more enjoyable.

For The Love Of Port

20yr old tawny

20yr old tawny

Why pass Warre's?

Bad experience with an old 40 year old port