Realistic Ageing? 1850/1880 colheita's

[Tim Swaback]

I'm still a young VP when it comes to port and I have a simple question about "OLD" Port/Madeira/Colheitas. I keep seeing people talk about stuff from the 1800's and it makes me wonder about aging. I know (at least I think I know) that most of these wines are way past their peak, but people still buy/drink them.

My question is simple:

Are bottles of Port/Madeira/Colheita from the 19th century only kept/consumed because they are from the 19th century, or because they taste that much better having aged so long?

[Glenn E.]

To some extent, it depends.

Colheitas that have been in wood that entire time may actually still be improving, at least in some respects. I had the chance to taste a 1906 Colheita that had been freshly bottled in 2008, and it was absolutely stunning. It's the only 100 point rating I've ever given out.

But if the Colheita was bottled 50 years ago, there's an excellent chance that it is in decline. But even then it will depend on how long it had been in wood before being bottled - the more wood time it has had, the better its chances.

Even VP that old is not necessarily over the hill. I suspect that there are bottles of 1994 VP that will live to see the 23rd century. They probably will not still be improving after 106 years, but they might still be holding strong on their plateau.

Madeira is a completely different beast. I get the impression that it can live forever - take a look at Roy's recent post about his dinner at the Herb Farm and the nightcap he had there - a 1790 Terrantez. George Washington was President when those grapes were harvested.

[Eric Ifune]

With these wood aged wines, they can continue to improve in the cask. I was with Roy on the Fortification tour last year (am missing this years now!) and we visited the Krohn cellars. They have an area of their cellar locked up for their old and rare casks. Tasted several out of the wood including an 1863 Colheita. The 1863 is the single best wine I've ever had. In Madeira, they can improve for an unbelievable amount of time. D'Oliveira still has some of their 1850 Verdelho still in cask. Once bottled, the aging slows to a crawl, but the high acidity, extract, and the oxidation in cask will preserve the wine; hence the 1795 Terrantez.

[David Spriggs]

With these wood aged wines, they can continue to improve in the cask. I was with Roy on the Fortification tour last year (am missing this years now!) and we visited the Krone cellars. They have an area of their cellar locked up for their old and rare casks. Tasted several out of the wood including an 1863 Colheita. The 1863 is the single best wine I've ever had. In Madeira, they can improve for an unbelievable amount of time. D'Oliveira still has some of their 1850 Verdelho still in cask. Once bottled, the aging slows to a crawl, but the high acidity, extract, and the oxidation in cask will preserve the wine; hence the 1795 Terrantez.

I'm going to start writing up that trip to Krohn tomorrow

[Roy Hersh]

I'm still a young VP when it comes to port and I have a simple question about "OLD" Port/Madeira/Colheitas. I keep seeing people talk about stuff from the 1800's and it makes me wonder about aging. I know (at least I think I know) that most of these wines are way past their peak, but people still buy/drink them.

Tim, I don't have time (I am in Madeira right now) to provide a very detailed answer, but I can say one thing, your statement above is not accurate. The Madeiras from the 1800s are DEFINITELY NOT way past their peak and in some cases ... in fact, many cases ... they have not even reached their peak. A 1795 I had less than two weeks ago was still going strong and was as young as many Madeiras I've tasted from 1900-1970. So, you need to rethink this.

Also, the Colheitas from the late 19th century may or may not be close to peak either. It depends when they were bottled. Sure, some are over the hill or should have been consumed long ago, but there are some that have the structure to drink beautifully for MANY decades to come. Start saving and come along for the ride of your life on one of our trips and I will personally introduce you to some of these Ports and Madeiras.

[Tim Swaback]

Thanks for the reply Roy. I really had no idea that a wine could age well for that long. I knew that many VP's take 50, 60 or 70 years to be mature but I had no idea that they could go 200 years!

[Roy Hersh]

I was talking about Madeira going 200 years. The oldest Ports I have had were only 192 years old when tasted. One was far better than the other, but let's just say that few people ever get to taste Port over !50 years of age. For Vintage Ports, beyond 120 years of age ... the bottles are a total crap shoot. Much better odds with a Colheita of being alive.

[Al B.]

This old post caught my eye the other day when I had been idly wondering how much of my enjoyment comes from the quality of the wine in the bottle and how much comes from associating the age of the wine with events at that time and how much the world has changed since the grapes were being grown - a bit like watching Downton Abbey for wine lovers.

Given my age, I tend to regard anything from the 1963 vintage or more recent as being quite young and virile (and accounts for about 90% of all I drink). Anything post WW2 to 1960 is mature and just about middle aged. Vintages from between the wars I view as mature. Pre-WW1 I regard as old and probably not improving any more.

I have had some fabulous old bottles of vintage port. Cockburn produced some astonishing port in 1908 and 1912 and if I could find them and afford them I would drink these more often. These perfectly combine the romance of their age with the quality of their wine - you could serve these blind to a fellow wine lover and they would be unlikely to guess the age of the wines as they are so lush and robust. The oldest port that I really enjoyed for the quality of the wine in the bottle was the Ferrira 1830; this was elegant and refined and just so balanced. But in general I would say that I like drinking these old ports for their place in history and in the hope that I discover another stunning bottle. My realistic expectation is that the wine will have peaked some years before but will still be enjoyable, just no longer stunning.

Colheitas in the cask do seem to last longer at their peak than vintage ports. One of the most impressive ports that I have ever had was the Taylor Scion which is reputed to have come from the 1855 vintage. Associating the changes in the world in the last 150 years really puts this wine into its place in history - and then you overlay the fact that it is a stunning wine on its purely vinous merits.

Drinking old wine or vintage port is a lottery (colheitas or madeira much less so). 9 times out of 10 the bottle will be fading, although rarely dead. But I get a distinct thrill out of opening somethat that was made with love and care by people whose great-grandchildren now walk the vineyards, and who made these bottles to be opened, enjoyed and shared.

Later this year a group of us are planning to open a bottle of 1792 Blandy's Madeira that came from a cask reputed to have been ordered by Napoleon. Who knows if the story is true, but that's an example of the romance associated with wines of this age.

[Moses Botbol]

Given my age, I tend to regard anything from the 1963 vintage or more recent as being quite young and virile (and accounts for about 90% of all I drink). Anything post WW2 to 1960 is mature and just about middle aged. Vintages from between the wars I view as mature. Pre-WW1 I regard as old and probably not improving any more.

In an ideal world, I'd agree... 50 year mark on VP is where they start to get serious.

[Eric Ifune]

I'm currently on the Douro with Roy and over the past couple of days, have visited some smaller, family run quintas with stocks going back generations. Have had two astounding 19th C wines, one from cask and the other from demijohn after long cask aging. Monuments to Port wine history. Many of these old stocks are used for Tawnies of Indicated age. Just a little can add great complexity to a blend of younger wines.

[Roy Hersh]

Alex's post is just brilliant. One of my favorites in quite awhile.

Eric, we were very fortunate. I know which of the two you preferred but I'd be happy to drink either ... even one more time in my life!

[Eric Ifune]

Roy,
Yes, we were very, very lucky and I'd also be happy to have either again. Makes one wonder about the other 6 demijohns!

[Tom Archer]

A key factor here is the question of filtration.

If port is aged in wood for a couple of decades, and is then bottled unfiltered, the resultant wine has an almost indefinite life - similar to the fine madeiras.

However, if it is heavily filtered prior to bottling, it tends to fall apart as it ages in bottle.

Unfortunately, the label never reveals the filtration regime, so one can only go on reputation. Niepoort tawnies are famously log lived, whereas recent bottlings by the Symingtons appear filtered to death - among recent encounters, a Graham 40yr, bottled in 2003, proved to be in a very sad state..

[Daniel Jewesbury]

A couple of brief observations. We enjoyed a 1795 with Dirk Niepoort in September this year and I couldn't believe it. My reference was not George Washington being President but Beethoven being a young man. That made me think.

Tom's point about Graham's 40YO is interesting. I've found I like it a lot less than the 30YO and have discovered that others do too. The Graham's aged tawnies seem to improve and become more complex in a reasonably predictable way as one compares the 10, 20 and 30 YOs; but then one tastes the 40 and one seems to be tasting a totally unrelated port. Peculiar.

[Moses Botbol]

Tom's point about Graham's 40YO is interesting. I've found I like it a lot less than the 30YO and have discovered that others do too. The Graham's aged tawnies seem to improve and become more complex in a reasonably predictable way as one compares the 10, 20 and 30 YOs; but then one tastes the 40 and one seems to be tasting a totally unrelated port. Peculiar.

Give the Noval 40 a go; they do a better job on the older tawny than the Symingtons IMO.

[Daniel Jewesbury]

Thanks Moses, I'll give that a try.

A related question regarding the recent releases of aged colheitas / single vintage tawnies.. Would there be much point holding on to bottles of (for instance) the Graham's 52 / 69 / imminent 82, given that they're not going to improve with age in bottle (and given the comments above regarding the possibility that Sym aged tawnies are filtered)? I know that the question of whether or not to keep a bottle of the 82 SVT lying around is a pretty academic one to you guys across the pond, but over here it's a real concern....

Seriously though. I would have thought, given everything that's already been said on this subject, that these could actually start to deteriorate if kept for a long time (say decades) in bottle...?

[Tom Archer]

Would there be much point holding on to bottles of (for instance) the Graham's 52 / 69 / imminent 82

When I tried the '52, my impression was that it had been filtered, although it's hard to be certain. I don't get a lot out of freshly bottled tawnies, however venerable they may be, but do appreciate them after they've mellowed in bottle for a decade or three.

I've had good (but not outstanding) results with Symington tawnies bottled in the '70s and '80s, but the 2003 bottled G40yr that I opened at the end of August this year was a bit of a shocker. Right now I'm not buying any more post '90s bottled Symington tawnies, until I can get a better take on what they're doing to these wines.

In the interests of science, I have in mind to pop a 2008 bottled Dow '69 colheita sometime soon, to see where that's going..

[Daniel Jewesbury]

In the interests of science, I have in mind to pop a 2008 bottled Dow '69 colheita sometime soon, to see where that's going..

If you need a lab assistant, Tom, just say!
Perhaps the question of tawny filtration should be asked of Charles Symington at the BBR Port Walk in a month's time.

[Tom Archer]

If you need a lab assistant, Tom, just say!

Try and work a time and place when Phil can also be present (69 is his birth year) and we'll sort an informal offline..

[Roy Hersh]

Tom,

I assume that you are aware that Graham's has totally revamped their Tawny Port lineup, improving the overall quality in the past year or so?